Episode 26 - Virginia Méndez - “Inroads in Feminism”
Published on: July 7, 2022
Our newest podcast episode features Virginia Méndez, Virginia is the author of “Childhood Unlimited: Parenting beyond the gender bias“ and the series of children’s books “Mika & Lolo”. She is a public speaker and co-founder of The Feminist Shop - an ethical brand that educates on the topic of feminism. She is passionate about gender equality and turned her skills in industry towards challenging kids and adults to unlearn constrictive stereotypes. She has received accolades including being listed as one of the 145 Inspiring Women Leaders of 2020 by Diverse In Globaland, and getting recognition for her company on Top 100 UK and Entrepreneur 2020.
We were so excited to talk with Virginia about books, about feminism, about groups, about education, and more. Tune in, and let’s spread that joy and learning!
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Transcript
Linet 00:02
Hey everybody, we have an absolute gem of a podcast in store for you today we talked about parenting, writing books, how to make change, a lot of journeys. Trust me, it was a journey themed podcast. We talked about feminism we talked about what it means to be an activist what it means to speak up what it means to not speak up when you're overtaxed and you can and how important it is to blend anger and love in change and to always maintain hope and joy
Hi everyone! ¡Hola a todes! Linet here ( and Alexis) your co-hosts both she/her bringing you impactful stories and interviews from our communities to you and explore how we can support each other.
Alexis 01:08
As always, we want to acknowledge that the Unconscious Bias Project is based in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, on unceded ancestral homeland belonging to the Ramaytush Ohlone and Muwekma Ohlone peoples, some of whom speak the language Chocheño. We encourage you to learn more about the Ohlone people on our website in the podcast links.
Linet 01:32
And yay, We’d like to welcome today Virginia Méndez, pronouns she/her. Virginia is the author of “Childhood Unlimited: Parenting beyond the gender bias“ and the series of children’s books “Mika & Lolo”. She is a public speaker and co-founder of The Feminist Shop - an ethical brand that educates on the topic of feminism. She is passionate about gender equality and turned her skills in industry towards challenging kids and adults to unlearn constrictive stereotypes. She has received accolades including being listed as one of the 145 Inspiring Women Leaders of 2020 by Diverse In Globaland, and getting recognition for her company on Top 100 UK and Entrepreneur 2020. So welcome, Virginia.
Virginia 02:21
Well, again, thanks for having me. Very excited.
Alexis 02:24
Yeah, we're excited to have you!
Linet 02:26
To get us started, I wanted to ask: I obviously have opened your website or researched it. So on your website, you say that not that long ago you refuse to identify as a feminist, yet now you're running the Feminist Shop, you have 1000s of people on your newsletter, you're getting press, you're getting recognition. Can you tell us about that journey from saying “I refuse to identify as a feminist” to now identifying so strongly with feminism.
Virginia 02:57
And I appreciate that you said “I used to identify,” because when I used to tell this story, I said I was not a feminist. And then somebody corrected me and said, “Well, you were, you just refused to identify yourself, because you didn't know what Feminist was.” And I thought that was one great correction. So I tried to go with it, because I think that that's part of the story itself. And I think a lot of the people that refuse to call themselves feminists do it because they don't understand and the word is still very stigmatized. And they feel like, you know, calling yourself a feminist means that you have to accept a blanket, you know, a lot a list of things that you might not agree with all of them. And so I was one of those. I thought feminism was victimizing women, I was going to be very ambitious, I didn’t need it… When I was disagreeing with a lot of the policies that some of the feminists were doing, funny enough things that now I fully agree on, but I maybe wasn't ready back then. But I still think I was a feminist. I always was feisty, and I always agreed that we all deserve the same rights. And you know, it's in the benefit for the whole society that we have real equality opportunities. But yeah, it was my father-in-law who - we were arguing a while and he said, well, arguing, we weren't discussing and he said, “Well, of course, you're a feminist, Virginia, everybody decent is.” So I decided I was gonna prove him wrong. And I start doing some proper research in the area more I learned more was like, “Well, I guess I agree on that.” I started doing this thing of what I call now being an apologetic feminist, which is that, okay, “I'm a feminist, but I don't believe in these.” But that, I guess, that opened a door for me to start learning. And my feeling is that the more you learn, the more you care and the more you care, the more you want to learn. It's almost like, you know, a vicious circle, or of wanting to, you know, raise awareness, and you start seeing things from another perspective, even things that I wasn't ready to accept. When I guess I started this journey around 10 years ago or 12 years ago, now I'm like, “Yeah, I could see myself protesting with no bra in front of City Hall. Why not?” And so yeah, it is, it is a journey. And I don't think my journey is very dissimilar for a lot of people. I think it always comes with those little, you start being aware about certain things, and then you start getting the pieces of the puzzle together. And you're like, “Oh, well, so not only these, this bar, but this is somehow linked to these, and to these,” and then just start seeing things from, you know, different perspective lenses.
Alexis 05:53
And I'm also curious what that's like in Spain, in Ireland, I know that, for instance, there seems to be a stronger element in the UK, at least, as opposed to America, that feminism in the UK seems to have a much stronger TERF strain, anti-trans strain. I don't know what your experience is with that in Spain or Ireland. And I'm curious if that's affected that journey at all.
Virginia 06:25
My journey as a feminist was probably, the stronger it got, I was already living here in Belfast, and Belfast is Northern Ireland, which is UK. So I guess most of my feminist awakening and radicalization, I'm gonna say, although obviously, I follow a lot Spanish and because it’s Northern Ireland, it’s very intertwined with the rest of the island. And but yeah, it's quite a strong, I'm finding, there is a big debate, Northern Ireland, in particular, is very intersectional, the trans and the feminist community collaborates a lot together. And there is a very strong narrative of “Your fight is my fight.” And in the UK, I think it's much more broken, a much more segmented thing, it's very sad to see because a lot of those women that are very transphobic, they are really great advocates, and they are doing amazing work in other areas of feminism. And somehow they are using so much energy in directing a campaign of hate, you know, so it's very difficult because you can see the passion for them into a lot of great things, you can see how driven they are about women's issues, is just that it's, some have, I feel like there is a lack of understanding or there's a lack of, you know, I think there's fear again, to me a lot of these problems come out of fear that they fought so hard into getting those rights and now they're gonna be taken away, or “why do we have to share our piece of the pie?” And it's like, “no, I don't think there's enough pie for everybody” actually that’s where the problem resides, I think I'm - when I've talked with some of them. And I still have, I think, as an ally, I, it's more my work to have those conversations, maybe, than some trans people, because I have more, you know, headspace and more emotional space, to deal with it without being personally attacked. Whenever I've been talking as an ally, and just like with our boundaries, and they always come back to me, by gender. If gender didn't exist, then you know, all these problems… if we eradicate gender, a lot of the problems will disappear. But it's like, yeah, you want to eradicate gender, the only way to effectively eradicate gender is by having a million genders, if it makes sense, then when genders is like, the people's homes, whenever people can, because they're like, well, then there's a lot of genders who is not only now woman a man is like all these new things in the middle. And it's like, yeah, that's how we win. We win by making gender your home and what it feels right and what is your identity and not letting it be defined by what society expects you to be? I mean, that is the way we are willing to take him back that control of the narrative which they've I think they feel like they're being erased. But I don't think there is a problem of erasure, I think nobody's taking away womanhood or sex issues, or, you know, it's just been able to separate sex issues and generations and been able to include the trans community in both of those. It's very disheartening, because we have the opportunity to collaborate and do great things together, as you know, because there are fights that are necessarily part of the same nature. And there's so much energy and so much time directed in hate campaigns that it's just awful, really sad to say.
Alexis 10:21
You said something back there about, like, you know, that's how we really get the equality and, you know, ironically, by multiplying gender so much, and having so many options, and also having more options within gender itself, right? By expanding what does it mean to be a woman, by expanding what does it mean to be a man, right, we get closer and closer to that next step, where we get to not worry about gender, again, if we can get that level of acceptance.
Virginia 10:54
100% and it’s a feeling of, accusing me the other day, like “why you never use the word sex?” I'm like, “Oh, I do”. And I think there are sex problems, like for example, periods would be a sex problem, but trans men also suffer from sex-related, you know, issues, and you have gender problems, and then trans women are affected by them. I think no matter which angle you want to go with the traditional way to understand womanhood, and, you know, feminist based on cis women, you have to include the trans community, because they are also affected by it, trans men or trans women, whatever side you pick. And we can leave them behind. I mean, especially because the trans community is one of the most activist, it's one, like a lot of the, you know, historic advancements that have happened because of trans activists. What does really infuriate me is that feeling of, is that how, you know, nobody has a lot of time, nobody has a lot of energy, is that how we want to direct our anger? Is this, you know, whow we want to spend our time on Twitter or in, you know, social media? Is that what really matters? Why are we not choosing love? Why are we not using compassion? And there's people doing real harm to women at the moment, any women or any person? And why are we letting them off the hook? Because suddenly, you know, what, trans girls wanna swim in competition? They really is, that what is, you know, that are, those the problems of the world, that a trans girl has one swimming competition in university? I don't know, it feels very distracting.
Alexis 12:48
There was a politician out here who recently wrote a letter about vetoing an anti-trans bill, he ran some numbers in that letter and said, ultimately, we are talking about four girls at the college level, who this bill would affect, like, we really don't have other things to be spending our time on, other than picking on four girls to make the entire trans community feel alienated and unloved.
Virginia 13:21
No, it's just that I think that's the key part that the whole community is like, these woman is not gonna never read your tweets, but you know who's gonna read it? A lot of trans people on social media, then they're gonna feel that hatred is directly to them, they're gonna feel that fear directed to them. So its whenever we pick on one person or one issue, and we use that kind of level of hatred, you know, that hate just goes much longer into the whole community about the people that are on the verge, that people are already dealing with a lot of internalized things, like how is that helping?
Alexis 14:00
So with all this intersectionality in mind, I'm curious what some of your misconceptions about feminism were. And what that has brought you to your definition of feminism, and what that looks like to you.
Virginia 14:13
I don't think I really thought much, I think it was more like, to be honest, a passive rejection because we are taught to reject feminists and we are, we all want to be liked, and especially the way we want to be like women and if I think about myself back then when I was young, and it's very, you know, compliant, and you know, you can be feisty, but within limits, and you know, being a man-hater was a big thing. You still want to be validated. You still want to have that rationale and - they are, the way they are shown, it's just funny because I think, like, now I have shaved pink hair and attitude. So he's like, Oh my God, I've become the person I said I would never be, it's true. But it doesn't have to be like, I know a lot of feminists that look exactly as I looked when I was 23. And I was like, you know, all the society ways, but I don't know, I think you have that feeling of, they're too angry, or they're irrational, or they hate men, or, you know, they're just blaming, they're not taking responsibility, and they're blaming the system for things that you know, they're lazy or, or, you know, all the big team blaming that we have, so internalize that. But I think it was morally appealing, seeing, you get very obvious cues from the society that and this is a way I think, to reject, you know, like, oh, this is not what to do. Back then I was finishing my Master's, about to get in a corporate job, and you know, all that kind of, all your sweet, you know, suits and women with heels and advancing your career and be ambitious. And, and it just feels that there was not, it's very easy to hate or to fear whenever you don't sit down and read about it properly and understand it properly. And, you know, it's, it's what they told us. So I don't know if I had any specific misconception, but, but I think I have been learning from what I was able to digest back then, to where I am now. And I know that in five years, I will probably come back to this interview and be like, “Oh, wow, you had still loads to learn and unlearn”. But I think he's making is making peace with that journey of, oh, we all have a lot to unlearn and to relearn.
Alexis 17:03
Yeah. Right. I mean, it's like, I tell people, I'm like, I even still learn things about transness. Like, you know, 10 years ago, my knowledge of trans issues was not what it was five years ago was not what it is today is not going to be what it is in five years, in ten. You know, and I tell people, my kids, when I was teaching, they would teach me new things. They'd be like, oh, yeah, well, you know, Tumblr is, you know, having a big conversation about XY and Z. And I'm like, Whoa, this is - okay.
Virginia 17:38
Ya know, 100% I think that's the beauty of it. And I used to know exactly who I was. And I was very proud of it. And I am very proud now of not knowing where, who I'm going to be, if that makes sense. Like, I know exactly that. The only thing I know by now is that this is all changing, and it's learning fast. And who knows, when people ask me, oh, are you vegan? I'm like, Well, I'm not but asked me in 18 months, as the I don't take any yes or no, for granted. I don't know where my learnings and my journey is gonna bring me and that excites me. And that brings me joy.
Linet 18:20
That's super cool. As somebody that I think, similarly, just wanted to like, I mean, for, for me, my, part of my journey was just wanting to fit in, I moved around so much, I just wanted to fit in. I wanted to be accepted, I wanted to be respected, I wanted to prove myself. And all of that came with control, like controlling what my future was going to be controlling what the outcomes could be controlling how other people could see me. And I similarly, as I continued to gain experience and experience, you know, learning from other people learning from, you know, their day-to-day learning from this work that we do here at UBP. It's like, well, it's ever-changing. And I think that's okay. That's okay. Like, yeah, letting go of that control. That's incredible, but is very powerful. So I'm curious how this journey from like, “I don't identify as a feminist” to like, “oh, okay, this is something that I love, this is something I want to share.” How did that intersect with the Feminist Shop? And I think if you could tell, you know, a nonfeminist or maybe they don't know that they're a feminist yet, how would you describe the Feminist Shop to them and how did you come to create the Feminist Shop?
Virginia 19:47
Well, I'm focusing on the feminist - so my first, I started trying to do this kind of more professional with my first book, Mika and Lolo. I wrote a book for children about and why gender stereotypes did not define who we are and inviting kids to challenge them intentionally. And then I thought I was going to focus on that very much. But then my husband and I were looking for presents for Christmas. And I was like, “Okay, I'm gonna get everybody feminist gift. And I couldn't find really any brand, that I was like, “Oh, I cannot wait until Christmas, I cannot wait to get something from there.” So we started kind of brainstorming in our sofa about how that will look like - he works in e-commerce. And so he always kind of wanted to try something for himself. So we tried to recreate my own journey. So I wanted to make sure that in the Feminis Shop, there was something for past versions of me. And we wrote, we created a test that describe what type of feminist you are. So there's “positive feminist,” “unapologetic,” “angry,” “not a feminist yet.” And we wanted to do something for all of them, because it feels like there's a lot of “you don't get to call yourself a feminist if…,” you know, there's a lot of that sometimes within the movement, people almost believe in or feeling that they own feminism, and they get to tell who's a feminist and who's not. And I know that if somebody had told me that, whenever I was just starting, I would probably be put off by it. But we wanted to celebrate that this is a journey and where you are in the journey, it's about, you know, keep learning and celebrating where you are at the moment. And what are you doing? And what are you learning? And what are you doing about it? So, obviously, there is a shop, we sell over 500 books, and a lot of ethically-produced apparel and gifts that start conversations and make a statement, because we're big believers on the power of conversations. But it's full of free resources and content. So, you know, we have different sections like the role of men in families, how to raise families, women and sex. And we interview a lot of different people, and I write articles. And the idea is for it to be a hub, as well, and a place for people to feel their families and find out more. So things that you might not be ready yet to read or to agree with. But there's something that you might be like, “Okay, this is a good starting point for me. And now that I get it, maybe I'm curious to know a little bit more, or I want to find out more.” So yeah, to us, it was more like a celebration of values, and something to wear with pride and something to you know, just keep you curious and keep you learning but part of the same team, rather than saying who's not doing it perfectly, or, you know, who doesn't get to call themselves feminists, that kind of five, or it would be much better, we could celebrate each other or challenge each other, but as part of the same team, like, “Okay, well, we disagree on this part. But, you know, we're both trying to achieve this thing. You think this is the way to do it? I think this is the other way, you know, let's challenge each other, let's learn from each other.” So that is what we are trying to create in the Feminist Shop.
Alexis 23:41
So often the answer is actually both right? It doesn't have to be like, “Oh, this is the right way, this is the wrong way.” Right. They can both often be the right way, and have multiple avenues to the same goal.
Virginia 23:58
And I think people agree more than they disagree, you know, and I think it's just that we focus a lot on the things that we disagree on especially, I think we've stopped listening to each other like we are and a lot of these topics in families are severely emotional they are because they are our own existence. And they're our own experiences. And our you know, too. I mean, I'm saying this as though I swear shout and scream at my husband five days a week. I had to write I wrote an article about the whole Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial, because if he heard me wants more talking about it, he was like, “can you just write about it and then just send me the link because we we are not able to talk about anything else because you keep bringing it back.” But they are emotional topics. And it's about being able to have those conversations and you know, just being able to be challenged and being able to agree, sometimes disagree, that's fine. But just, you know, having that, that those conversations basically, and those challenging points of view.
Linet 25:14
I think one of the issues or you know, maybe, at least for me, one of the misconceptions about what feminism could be, is just talking about issues that women face, like violence at home. Like, you know, being harassed on the street. I remember really clearly, you know, this one time, in, I was on vacation, we had a vacation, we invited - this is in Colombia - we invited you know, all my aunts and cousins. On my dad's side, we have a very large family. And it was and then we have a very strong matriarch come on my dad's side of the family, Mami Olgui , everybody looks up to her, and she's, you know, a single parent right now. And, you know, she's at the head of the table, and, you know, all my aunts and my cousins are around and some of the uncles and my dad and, and dude, cousins are sort of doing something else. And some reason it becomes a conversation about sharing moments when we've been sexually harassed. And it's always it was like, you know, one of the first is started with you know, getting robbed in the bus and like public transit, public transit in Bogota is notoriously a great place to get stuff stolen, so you don't never wear real jewelry, and whatever you wear should be easy to take off, you know, if it gets ripped off of your of your neck. Gosh, I'm doing great press for Colombia right now. Anyways. So useful tips? Yeah. So, um, so it starts, we start talking about oh, yeah, I remember when this this guy trick grabbed my necklace, but it was the necklace from my, you know, so and so. So I was like, No, you know, take your hands off me and, and stop being malandra. And I hit him with this purse, you know, whatever. And then, you know, somebody else told a story of, you know, some guy saying something to her. And she turning - oh, it was my grandma - she's like, “I walked out of the store one time. And this guy was like a go mamacita,” you know, like, obviously, quote, unquote, “compliments.” And my grandma turns around, and she's like, “so, you know, I'm a grandma.” And the guy was, like, shocked. But you know what it was like, oh, “it's because I have nice legs,” you know. So it was it was like, “oh, but it's a nice thing.” But it was kind of rude. And then, and then it continues to escalate, you know, with more and more stories until finally, my cousin and her mom tell the story of how they were walking down like a, like street stalls selling stuff. And the mom notices two guys trailing behind her daughter. And, and so she she, like, grabbed, grabbed her her arm and she was like, “Okay, we're gonna walk faster.” And they start working faster. And then she looks behind her. And there's like four guys. Now that are like walking behind them. And so I forget exactly what happened. But I think they said something like, you know, like, “Get the fuck away from my kid.” And they both ran. And, you know, and the feeling in this conversation was like,” oh, yeah, you know, this is just something that happens.” And we're just like, :this is you know, you have to take charge for yourself. Otherwise, you know, nobody's kind of come to your rescue.” And my mom, at some other point had shared with me how some guy groped her ass in the middle of the street. Like she was just walking. And some guy grabbed her ass and so she grabbed a bottle out of like a street vendors. You know, like, stand out have like, a coke bottle or something. And like, crush it over the guy's head. Like I had the sun was like, oh, yeah, that's fine. And you know, as like, “Yeah, this is just how we do and choose,” like, you know, and this happened in front of a cop and the cop did nothing. And so you know what, these are like precious moments that I remember of this. Like, I know we never really talk about these issues. But like, you know, we don't talk about verbal harassment, sexual harassment, or, you know, we don't talk about violence at home, or we don't talk about, you know, in the US, you can't get a sanitary pad without it being taxed. You know, you've if, you know, if a bathroom has tampons, it's like, oh, my gosh, this is luxury. You know, Alexis and I did a workshop in person the other day. And we went to the sort of like, you know, local family, you know, brew, brewery and restaurant. And I went, and I was like, wow, the bathroom is accessible. And it has a changing table. That's wild, like, you'd never see that at a place that serves beers. Like that's, it's just totally bizarre. But we just don't make space to talk about those things. In our daily lives, I feel that that's, that's one way to, to be feminist is to just make space to talk about some of these issues.
Virginia 31:02
100% I think I am, who I am, where I am, because of the people that, you know, have this conversation the same way that person that told me about oh, you identify, there's been so many conversations that have been, you know, penny droppers like, “oh.” Period poverty was one of them, like, “of course, of course.” So I volunteer with an association here that is called Homeless Period Belfast. It was like, of course, if you're homeless, and then you have your period, you know, and you can't afford, you know, that's worse. You know, like, it's the kind of thing that whenever you're in a privileged position, you don't even grasp, or like refugees that are fleeing their country. And it's like, yeah, like, your period doesn't stop, just because, you know, you're struggling, but you need to have the conversations, we need the visibility we need. Because otherwise, either we don't see them because they're away from us, or we normalize it. Like, I think, for me, like the sexism in Spain, and the sexism in, in Northern Ireland, it's very, very different. So for example, all the things that you're talking about all the, you know, men sexually harassing you telling you comments in the street, the feeling of like, oh my god, there's a group of boys there, they're gonna say something or, you know, that, that nerve in the stomach, or calling your friend on the phone when you get home in case something happened to one of you, those things for me, were normal. I didn't ask, it’s just what it was, you know, it took me years of be like, had some fucked up, you know, like, it is, you don't even see it. I mean, you know, it's bad, you know, in theory, but it's not a good part of life. You know, that's, that's my price. That's the price I pay for being a woman. It’s almost like when I came here, the sexing here is more about traditional and rigid roles kind of like the woman take the husband's name and you know, there's the whole system is almost thought for like you become a mother you stop your career or you're the one that give up you know, that that sense of there's a lot of separation there's a lot of blue and pink and you know there's, it's very rigid, a stereotyping which in Spain I think we don't have, but in again, in Spain, we have a lot of sexualisation of girls and, and it's just funny because the sex is that you're used to, you don't see and then you go to another country and he's like, “wow, why is nobody saying this?” And then you reflect about your unconscious. Like, why we didn't see these. So yeah, I think those conversations are so powerful because they invite us to reflect and you know, a lot of the things that are not a me problem, they're like a system problem and, and being able to talk about it, it's definitely it's definitely feminist and it's definitely helpful. I am not saying but grateful for those people that share their stories to me with me and, and make me question my own experiences.
Linet 34:28
This reminds me of the smile thing. Alexis heard us talking about this recently. About how just women you know, at least in the US definitely in, in in Colombia, you're sort of expected to walk around the street with a permanent smile on your face or even in the workplace. You're supposed to be smiling or something. And I, just what you said, you know, it made me remember, this conversation I had, it was somebody that was looking for donations for a particular abortion rights group. And it was a guy. And, you know, I talked to him I, you know, I signed you know, whatever it was that the petition and and then as I was leaving, he's like, “Oh, you look so much better when you smile.” And I crossed the street because I was in the middle of crossing the street and I was like, Okay, fine, I'm gonna go back and when to talk to him. I was like, “hey, you know, do you have kids?” And he's like, “Yeah, I have a daughter.” I was like, “How would you feel if you know, some stranger was asking your daughter to smile?” He's like, “Well, there's nothing wrong with that.” I was like, “Well, would you ask, you know, somebody's son to smile? Like, you know, have you thought about how, you know, are asking women and girls to be smiling is about objectification of women. And like, the work that you're doing right now with this petition is kind of going against what you're saying by asking me to smile. Like, I'm somebody's daughter. Like, I don't, you know, I, I signed your petition. But this is like a form of sexism.” And he was floored. I mean, I was grateful that he listened. Right? Because I'll be honest, before that, I just kept anytime somebody asked me to smile I just turned around with be like, “Fuck you, asshole.” Just so I was like, this is the first time that I literally I was like, Okay, I think this person would listen. So I'm just gonna actually talk to them. And he's like, “Oh, thank you. I never thought about that that way before.” And, you know, people, other people being open to talking about it. I think I think that's when we start, we start changing things.
Virginia 36:51
But I'm sure he not only he is grateful, but I'm sure whenever he has experienced it in the future, you know what I mean? Like, probably, if he ever has that urge, or if he ever hear somebody else doing it, you come to mind, and it has probably inspire him to do the same for the next person. You know, I think once you see those things, clearly, it's very difficult to be continued to be part of the problem. As in, there's things that I used to do a lot as the comments about weight, for example, that once I've understood, automatic of it, not only I wouldn't do it anymore, but if I see somebody doing it, I'll be like, “Look, you know, just want you to know that I used to do that, too. But then somebody explained to me this, and it makes sense,” because that is that inspiration of like, “Oh, now I've learned this. I used to do this.” So it's not about now I'm holier than anybody else. It's about while I learned because somebody took the time to teach me and it's great that I can pay that back. And having been part of this domino effect, in which we pass the learnings from a place of love.
Alexis 38:08
You know, I was at a event last summer, where we had a specific trans, and cis-women space. And so you had to be, you know, one of one or more of, you know, trans, female, non binary, get into the space and this guy, you once I explained it to him, he said, “Oh, that's so great that they have a space for-” and then he used a trans slur. And I was like, “Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.” The goal right here should not be to tell you how you're wrong. But to tell you, the goal should not be to tell you, “you're a bad person,” because he just did that thing, but to like, educate you in a way that brings you in. And by the end of the conversation, he said, “Oh, my gosh, thank you so much. I didn't realize that was a slur. Thank you for telling me so that I can avoid that in the future.”
Virginia 39:13
I think people in general easily. It's just that the problem with that. And I agree. And I tried to keep that down as much as possible is that it ended up being the emotional labor of the victim to be the bigger person and sometimes you have this base, and sometimes you don't, you are in that space in which is like, Look, I can't afford and that's why I think the power of allyship, it's so important. Like, sometimes as a woman I'm like, “Look, I don't want to explain to you these again.” I will like you know, my husband or my friend that is a feminist to have this conversation because a somebody will listen to him more sadly, and be because I'm tired. I mean, it's bad enough that I have to go through but then I have to also have my nicer, and kinder, and welcoming voice. And sometimes you have that and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you want to, turn around and say, “look buddy” because that is what really your bodies have been. So as as much as I 1,000,000% agree with, this is very valuable. It's brilliant when we have that space, and that capacity to do it, you know, with respect and to have those conversations and to challenge each other. The reality is that, the more oppressed you are, and again, I'm very privileged and lucky that way, but the more you can't be expected to also do all the emotional, physical energy labor to agitate the others about, “this is how my existence is valid. Let me educate you with a smile,” even phase two is for you to call in. So yeah, so whoever has the energy, please use it. But if you don't, you know why. That's okay. Do what's okay to you.
Alexis 41:00
And then sometimes when you have the energy right to do this work, right, sometimes it's also about like, getting fairly compensated for the work as work.
Virginia 41:15
Right? Yeah. So 100%.
Alexis 41:17
So I'm gonna use that as a segue, a little bit, a little bit of a heavy handed segue into talking about something that you do for work to do a lot of this advocacy and when you when you have the ability to do it, and that's you are writing these books, right? Like, “Mika and Lolo,” like “Childhood Unlimited.” Can you tell us a little bit about the process there and what that was like getting to a point where you wanted to were able to write these books and, and making that happen.
Virginia 42:01
So “Mika and Lolo” are different, I guess, because they are, for my case, I wrote the first one when I was pregnant. I wrote the second just this last summer talking about consent, because there are topics that I talked with my kids about. But my real, the book that I feel, and I love them all, but the book that I feel like has capacity to make a big change is “Childhood Unlimited,” which is a book about how we parent the young to gender bias. And I need to book in which I try to have those conversations that I was having with my friends, with my parents, with family members about my way to educate my kids, and all those many hours of research. And all the things that I experienced firsthand, I wanted to have that conversation with as many people as possible. And writing this book allowed me to do so. And to do it in an instructiomal way. And, again, I think this is a tool for whenever you don't have the space, and you are tired of explaining and you can just say to somebody, you know, “just read the book,” because it's very, again, it's non judgmental, it comes from a place of “look, it's difficult, this is you know what society tells, but let's let me show you how present gender stereotypes are from the moment we're born.” So it talks about neuroplasticity, gender stereotypes, clothes, toys, boots, media Language, and then it tells why it's important, and what can we do about it. So it's very practical as well. But it comes it was born from the urge to do something like I feel like I have this information. I feel like whenever I have these conversations with people, it has a massive impact. And I want to have you know, how can I multiply this impact? How can I bring this to many more families? And I'm, writing the book has allowed me to do so, especially because I also got interviews with great experts. So I’ve been able to share those voices that have teach me so much and you know, especially keep recommending parents other things, do a parent or educators like oh, well if you like this topic, why don't you just read and check and do this and just empower them to keep researching and to keep realizing that we can parent and beyond those strict rules of what gender is supposed to mean.
Alexis 44:45
Kind of reminds me of why I started my blog. When I started writing my blog was because I'd been having these conversations and was like, “maybe I should write all this down so that…”
Virginia 44:57
Yeah, and the reality is that they are similar, like you live this life with all these frequently asked questions and so are in your journey draws you to the million, the same question asked a million times, like, so you're like, oh, “maybe I could just write that and pass it so I don't have to go through all this all again.” And yeah, I think we're not that different - that the things that scare us and the things that we know and the things that we don't know what the things like, what we want for our kids, or what we want for society is not really that dissimilar. So it's good to be able to have a handy way to provide some answers, or at least our perspective on them.
Alexis 45:40
Yeah, that's great. What's the response been like?
Virginia 45:43
Well, it's been good, like some of it, we just, it just really lanched a month ago, tomorrow is gonna be a month ago. So it's very new, but some of the endorsement has been fantastic. The reviews are starting to come back. And yeah, it's, it's really exciting. People are finding it very accessible, which I wanted, very conversational, and thought provoking. And, yeah, like, somebody told me the other day that it was great, because they were nodding a lot of the book. Like, yeah, yeah, so there's a lot of reference. But he said, “they was part that I was like, oops, just talking about me here, I definitely do that.” So I think if it gets to read you mostly and challenge you a bit, it's also doing its job. So again, it's about some people that will read this book, or that have read this book, are very new in this whole thing. And some people are very, you know, hardcore, you know, feminist, and I am loving the response is positive for you know, in all the spectrum, everybody seems to be getting something out of it. And that is so exciting.
Alexis 46:57
Alright, and with that, we are going to go to a quick break. We'll be back in just a moment after some announcements.
Seth 47:09
Hi, everyone, this is Seth and I am one of the audio editors and volunteers here at UBP. The Unconscious Bias Project brings creative, accessible, evidence-based solutions for unintentional bias to academic, technological, governmental organizations, and beyond. We sustain a welcoming home for inquisitive and creative minds and encourage a growth mindset. Working by the model of “0% Guilt, 100% Empowerment.” Please subscribe or follow our Facebook and Instagram for the latest in events and how you can learn more and be involved. Also, take a look and check out our guest's website and learn more. Look for that information in the description section of your podcast or on our website.
Linet 48:04
Hey, everybody, we're back now with Virginia Méndez. Now, one of the things that you mentioned, before we started recording about “Childhood Unlimited,” was that it's very intersectional, just as you had spoken earlier, you know, issues of feminism, you know, thinking about gender equality? You know, going beyond bias, it does include trans and non-binary kids. And you said something, like, you know, you purposely didn't make the title, let's, you know, “Guide for Parents about not Being Biased Against Non-binary and Trans Kids.” Can you share a little bit about sort of like looking at your growth as an author to you know, starting from “Mika and Lolo” all the way to creating this sort of, you know, big, conversational, helpful guide for parents in a way that's like, oh, you know, this is this a topic of, of gender and, you know, of trans kids or understanding non binary kids. It's just a part of the whole parenting thing. Can you can you share a little bit about that?
Virginia 49:29
Yes, I think what I am excited about this book is that you will hopefully get to people that will never buy a book that- I mean, this book is not about trans kids. It is also about trans, if it makes sense. I mean, it is a book that includes them because they're part of childhood, and is a book that I wrote with, for all the kids in in mind, though, it’s not, I mean, it talks specifically in a Chapter on trans, non-binary kids in the same way it does about girls and boys. And there's, there's like a small guide for people assuming that, you know, the book starts by like separate sex and gender, I'm referring to these men, referring to dad, and there's a small guide, there's, but I think a lot of parents would not buy a book, specifically about trans or even knowing maybe that it's because they everybody feels like, “Oh, that's not a topic that, my kid is not trans, so I don't need to know about this, I will buy a book about it, if I ever come across, that as the thing,” which I think is the wrong approach. I think we all need to approach childhood in an inclusive way, so what we know is that we have children. And what we know is that gender bias affects them, no matter what, it affects them in one way or in another. But my approach is like, we need to liberate kids from all those rules. And we need to understand why that separation and that strict binary, you know, comes with, we pay a price for it. And I think we cannot have that conversation, we started having the conversation of on what happened with the kids that are either, you know, transgender, or they're non-binary, or, or they're just not fitting in, in those boxes that we've made. And, and it is a call to action to all of us, as adults be in a safer space for those kids. It might not be your kids, and it might be your kids’ friends. But if we all, you know, become those safer space and create those, yeah, that space and that safety, and that knowledge, and that respect, and that compassion, it is a win for everybody. So I think that most parents that buy the book because they have a girl or so as far as they're aware, and they are like, “I don't want my girl to be always surrounded by pink” or “I don't want my boy- I want my boy to have more emotional intelligence. And I want to go beyond those things.” And I think the whole book itself is a way of we journey, which we come across and about, “okay, well, you know, we've gone this far, like, let's go farther, what happens next,” and how we we keep including other children, and why it's important for everybody that we do. So I think that is it has a lot of potential because it will arrive to parents that otherwise would never think that matter for them. And some of those parents will have kids that are non-binary, inevitably, some of them might not. But hopefully, you know, they will be able to pass the message to others they do or to operate at that as that safe person. So yeah, I think it has a lot of potential in that way.
Linet 53:11
Allthat is good. I'm curious, you know, you mentioned, you know, parents being on this journey, and I'm sort of seeing that we have a journey theme. At least that's what I think. So looking back on your journey, starting out as a not identifying as a feminist to starting and growing the Feminist Shop to starting and growing, you know, as an author, educating kids and adults, what would you say have been like has been one or maybe two lessons that you've learned along the way.
Virginia 53:48
So my two biggest lessons are all systems of privilege are interlinked. And we all need to be aware of our own privilege, and respond accordingly. I think I got into feminism because I felt aggravated. And that opened the door to me for me to realize all the other instances in which I was in the winning side of it, which are probably a big majority. So I think understanding intersectionality is so key. It's been by far my biggest learning and the one that has more shape who I have become and the older one is, again, it's about I don't know the power of anger mixed with love. I think I have a lot of anger in me an equal measure of love. So I think that is a winning combination as an activist whenever you manage to those two together in whatever theme I'm wherever topic social topic that you're passionate about. I think that's where the magic happens. And that's where, where I always try to activate in people, you know, a fair dose of anger, I think angers move us. But I think it has to be, you know, a company with the same same doses of love.
Linet 55:20
What advice would you like to share with our listeners about talking about gender?
Virginia 55:27
I would say, challenge yourself about, you know, what, check what makes you uncomfortable. And ask yourself why there's always something that make us feel uncomfortable. At some point, like, I don't want my you know, there is like, there is a moment in which we resort to the, “we are different,” or, “but that's the way it is,” or, you know, “that's nature, that's tradition,” like, try to unpack it. Just, whenever you find yourself going to that “But that's the way it is.” And you just want to, you know, just just don't, go and just dig deeper, like, “what happened? What's the story?” Be curious about it. What is the story behind it? Who says, what is that coming from? How can this be, you know, nurture, instead of natural? How that plays in the larger scheme. So yeah, I think it's difficult to have those conversations without being open to question those things, because it's so present, like the whole stereotypes by us. It's so present literally up everywhere, that it's quite difficult to get us. You know, just get us a bit farther. And just to keep questioning, questioning on why why why. So be curious, whenever you're talking with people about gender, just be curious, what it means for them, where it comes from, what experiences would, how is that perpetuated? How their society, you know, is reinforcing those ideas? Where are they saying it in TV? Are they saying this in books? How is that, you know, that explained in or sending a message through the clothes, or, you know, like, how it's everywhere, and just just go a bit farther? And just just stop to that? uncomfort? And just ask yourself why.
Alexis 57:30
To change gears a little bit. As we're recording this, there was a leaked Supreme Court opinion in the US that appears to overturn the right to abortion access. And so, you know, we're just really curious, you're in Ireland, which is expanding. Oh, wait, is this true? Hang on. You're in Northern Ireland. It's Ireland that just expanded abortion access..
Virginia 58:04
Oh, yeah. Well, Northern Ireland did it after. So Ireland did it first, Northern Ireland just did. So yeah, same country.
Alexis 58:13
You're in Northern Ireland, and Ireland and Northern Ireland have been expanding access to abortion, the same time that the US seems to be doubling down on restricting. Do you have any thoughts about the intersection of abortion access and gender equality and your hopes for the future?
Virginia 58:36
Yes, it is, it was a great victory. I was here, I was obviously already here by the time they manage to repeal the eighth [amendment] in the South. And then when the abortion rights happened in Northern Ireland was very emotional. There was lots of rallies, a lot of stories, heartbreaking stories. I mean, in Ireland, you were forced to give birth to kids that you knew were gonna die as soon as they were born. I mean, the cases - and I don't believe in separating good abortions from bad abortion and not wanting to get a good abortion. I don't care. You don't need to give me this story for me to defend your right to wherever you want. That said, there were so many so many stories. I mean, stories that like would break your heart and people criminalize on mother's criminalized because they were just getting abortion pills for their daughters. I mean, awful stories. And there was no there was no limit like the was forbidden didn't matter. You know, that was it. So it was very emotional fighting for it. It was very emotional whenever it was achieved. A lot of conversations argument discussions in the middle of America now remind us all that we can't take anything for granted. It doesn't matter how basic your human rights are, it doesn't matter how much we claim that “we’re first world and we know better and we are like, you know, leaders of wherever.” We come to take our most human, most basic rights for granted. And that is really, really scary. I don't think anybody - I mean, you know, these has been fought before, and they will be fought again. America will win again. You know what I mean? Like, we, there's no way, there's not gonna be a battle rest, and people are not going to just rest and let this happen. But that said, it is exhausting. And I think that is, you know, you almost be like, whenever you got here, there's no way back. You know, I know that that was the feeling whenever it happened here in Ireland like, okay, every, it feels like it's a milestone we got here. And that's something that we have. And I think the fear of what happened this week in America is that, no, it's not. You know, we can't even, like “you've, you've achieved this, and we will fight to take it away from you.” And I think that is, I think that was very heavy, emotionally. I think that was exhausting for people everywhere. Because it was that reminder of “No, you know, you, we - you, you can't take things for granted. We'll fight you back. We'll fight you back. And we won't let you have it.” Yeah, I think it has because the world is very globalized, especially now with social media, especially in you know, English-speaking countries. Yeah, it's been huge. I think it's been, you know, it's been really bad. And I, I hope, it's also been very empowering to see people fighting for it. And they, the camaraderie, it's up, and we're why we're here for you, even if we're an ocean away, and your fight is my fight and your stories, my story to us always. Big, big exercise of sorority, and sisterhood. And people have each other's back and, you know, feeling making others feel heard and supported and applauded in their fights. But But yeah, big, big step back. It's been bad weeks, really, really bad weeks for families. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I have hope. And I know that this is not over. And people will keep, you know, fighting, and we'll get it. And yeah, there's, there's no way that people are no going back. And we might have to go back temporary, but it's temporary. And, you know, we get there once and we'll get again and we protect this with our life.
Linet 1:03:08
That's, that is exactly, exactly the way to answer that question with hope, with hope. And with that hope in our hearts. To enter podcasts, we give our guests a space where they can shout out someone special to them a cause you want our listeners to pay attention to, or space to plug any projects you have going on or any projects coming up. So go ahead.
Virginia 1:03:35
I obviously would like people to have a look at thefeministshop.com And you know, doesn't mean like you have to buy anything, please don't buy anything that you don't need but but have a look at the free resources at the content. And keep us in mind for future gifts. And know that we take a take super seriously. And obviously my book, “Childhood Unlimited.” I am delighted with people getting into if there's anything about this that sparked your attention, grab your copy and contact me on social media or send me an email and you know, just check with me. I'm super approachable. And I love having this conversation with parents. My children's book “Mika and Lolo,” there as well. And there for aggressive points of views, one about gender stereotypes and one about consent and any public speaking or work in schools. I do love those. So yeah, if there's anything at all, just give me a shout and I will love to collaborate or work with you or just have a chat.
Linet 1:04:47
Thank you so much, Virginia. It was an absolute pleasure. Absolutely illuminating to have you on the pod.
Alexis 1:04:56
Thank you so much.
Seth 1:05:00
Thanks for listening. You can find more information and donate at unconsciousbiasproject.org. Dr. Linet Mera, she/her, and Alexis Krohn, she/her, are your hosts. Seth Boeckman, he/they, is your editor. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and follow us. We can be found on Facebook at Unconscious Bias Project, Twitter at UBP_stem, LinkedIn, Instagram, or join our mailing list. UBP is a fiscally sponsored project of the Social Good Fund, a tax-deductible 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. If you wish to sponsor us, please contact us in the contact us tab at unconsciousbiasproject.org.