Episode 27 - Lily Hamilton - “Seeking Justice in Justice”
Published on: August 18, 2022
Our newest podcast episode features Lily Hamilton. Lily grew up right here in our own Bay Area and is a former Marine, making them our second guest this season to be a former member of the armed services. They’re an active advocate for criminal justice reform and the rights of folks who are currently or formerly incarcerated. Lily is also an advocate for queer rights and queer representation, especially in intersection with tons of other identities and in intersection with the rights of incarcerated people.
We were so excited to talk with Lily about incarceration, intersectionality and queer rights, and how we can have better compassion for all in our society. This is an important episode - listen in!
Learn more about Lily’s work and get support:
Prisoner Resource
Consultations with Lily
lily@prisonerresource.com
Learn about worldwide incarceration systems:
Germany rehabilitation system - Neustrelitz Youth Prison
Sweden Prison System - Kumla Prison
US Considered the Most Punitive Country in the World
Visualizing the Unequal Treatment of LGBTQ People in the Criminal Justice System
Actions recommended by Lily:
Register to Vote
New Jim Crow
Prison Policy Initiative
Compassion Prison Project
Great organizations mentioned by Lily:
Black & Pink
Human Rights Projects
Anti-Defamation League
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To support our podcast please visit our contributions page.
Transcript
Linet 00:02
Hey, everybody, we have an amazing podcast I can't get I know I say this a lot. This one is really, really good. We have a wonderful guest with us, Lily, she'll take us through everything from what is the bare bones that we need to know about our incarceration system, how it could be completely different. They talked about dehumanization, they talked about humanization they talked about empathy, they talk about community, how this all intersects with queer rights and queer justice. And you know, it was such an awesome podcast and we uncovered so many topics that you know, there's going to be a part two, so enjoy.
Hi everyone! ¡Hola a todes! Linet here (and Alexis) your co-hosts both she/her bringing you impactful stories and interviews from our communities to you and explore how we can support each other.
Alexis 01:08
The Unconscious Bias Project is based in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, on unceded ancestral homeland belonging to the Ramaytush Ohlone and Muwekma Ohlone peoples, some of whom speak the language Chocheño. We encourage you to learn more about the Ohlone people on our website in the podcast links. And also just by searching the web. Learn, learn a bunch. Learning is great.
Linet 01:34
Yeah, learning. So on the topic of learning, We’d like to welcome today Lily Hamilton, pronouns they/she. Lily grew up right here in our own Bay Area and is a former Marine, making them our second guest this season to be a former member of the armed services. They’re an active advocate for criminal justice reform and the rights of folks who are currently or formerly incarcerated. Lily is also an advocate for queer rights and queer representation, especially in intersection with tons of other identities and in intersection with the rights of incarcerated people. Welcome, Lily!
Lily 02:10
Hello, thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Yay. Thank you for that introduction. That was really very nice.
Linet 02:19
How do you and Alexis know each other?
Lily 02:22
I live about 40 feet from Alexis. So I am Alexis's housemate. I live in the upstairs part of our house. And it's funny because the way that Alexis and I actually met once before I moved into this house, and I didn't know when I moved in that Alexis lived here, because I hadn't had a chance to meet Alexis. So it was a very funny confluence of circumstances.
Alexis 02:50
Yeah, we had met them one time before through one of our friends.
Lily 02:55
Did we meet at the roller skating event, or…?
Alexis 02:59
No, we met at either homo hangs or Kat’s place.
Lily 03:06
I think we met at a homo hangs event. I think that's okay. Yeah, I think so.
Alexis 03:11
Lily, I am so glad that we have you here. So I know from a ton of our previous conversations, because we have had a lot of previous conversations, I actually do know the rough outline of what you do to advance justice in your work. But could you actually tell us in your words: what do you do? Can you like, sketch that out for us?
Lily 03:31
Sure. And I've tried to use some broad strokes and maybe get a little more specific. So I work as a consultant, and my focus is on preparing individuals who are getting ready to go into federal incarceration, for that experience, them and their families. And so I take the time with them over a period of weeks to give them a good informational basis to make good decisions while they're inside. So for example, communicating with other incarcerated persons and staff in a way that is going to- because there are nuances to that that are not a part of our daily interactions. And there are pitfalls there that can lead to unfortunate circumstances, I have to say. I also do things like family reintegration for individuals and family members. So an offender whose family member has negative feelings about the offender because of what they've done, I help to reintegrate that relationship by providing a third party, myself, that both sides can speak with and get perspective from without having to be vulnerable in the beginning to each other, to allow both sides to express themselves fully, and without feeling like they have to censor themselves, and then gently guiding them through those emotions and feelings and thoughts in the attempt to get them to a place where they're willing to at least communicate to each other how they're feeling in a way that really represents their love for each other, and acknowledging the harm that has happened.
Alexis 05:31
That's incredible. That is so like, Yeah, I knew you were doing great work. But like, this is even more beautiful than I had realized.
Lily 05:38
Thank you, that makes my heart very full.
Alexis 05:42
I hadn't realized, for instance, that you worked with the families as well.
Lily 05:47
Yeah, working with the families is actually, it's very rewarding. It's also very, very hard. And there's so much trauma that comes with it. So when a person enters the criminal justice system, they don't do it alone, right? And so the family is traversing that experience, individually and as a collective, and in connection to the individual who is going to be incarcerated or who is incarcerated. And the confusion, the anxiety, the hurt, the feelings of betrayal, the misunderstandings of what the criminal justice system is and how it actually operates and affects the people who are affected by it directly the offender, and the person who was victimized or persons who are victimized, those things are extraordinarily difficult to navigate. And it's very rewarding to do that with them. It's also I mean, it's an emotional landscape that can be very draining, very difficult at the end of the day.
Linet 07:01
Absolutely, I was just thinking about the sheer volume of that emotional holding, that you're doing for each individual and for their community, family is community, right? And then emotional holding, making space for processing, asking those questions. and then taking care of yourself. In all of that, it just sounds like so much work. And it really reminds me of the little bit that I learned about the restorative justice process, that piece about the reintegration, of really trying to get people to be seen and whatever it is that they're feeling and experiencing, to then eventually help them see each other, and then move forward into talking about harms and how to repair relationships, how to continue to be in community, or in this case in family. That's so powerful. I mean, it looked just like Alexis says, this is a ton of work. It's really beautiful. Why do you do this? Why is this work so important to you?
Lily 08:18
Oh, boy, that's a big question. So before I talk about my personal experience, and it's important to me, because of the direct impact that the criminal justice system has on our communities, that's first and foremost, we tend to think in our country, in our communities, that when an individual commits an offense, they go to court, they receive accountability and responsibility through a term of confinement, and then they go to that term of confinement, they do that term of confinement, they come home, right? That's what we tend to believe. Which, of course, is completely not what happens at all. And looking at that, first, how that negatively affects our communities is very, very important to me, looking at it and finding the intersections there, where we can start to dismantle that system, where we can start to make people aware of how they are directly being affected by this system, by those they have elected. And those elected officials who - those that elected officials have placed in charge of those systems, how they have been derelict in their duty to the community. Thinking of that and trying to figure out how to make people more aware of the direct way they are impacted by the systems, that's very important to me. From a personal side, I am formally incarcerated. And I have seen up close and personal the way that everyone involved is impacted. We again tend to believe that the offender is the person who is affected directly by the system, right? They committed the offense. So they are the one who has to be held responsible for that offense, the courts hold them responsible for that offense, and then everybody goes on with their merry life. simply not true. When I went to prison, every person who loved me, every person who cared about me, every person who knew me, was affected immediately. Whether it be that they were shocked that a person they knew was going to prison, or whether it was my now ex-wife, who immediately had to figure out how she was going to care for our four children and how she was going to manage a household, as she had been a stay-at-home mother. So now she's got to figure out financially, how is she going to care for four children moving entire household to another state? We don't think about the impact here. Our system of justice is supposed to be focused on, well, first of all, it's supposed to be focused on justice, right? The leveling of the scales, but it's not. It's focused on retribution. Prosecutors pander to sensationalism in order to get their pound of flesh to make it look like they are doing their jobs. Defense attorneys are underpaid, they're understaffed, they're overwhelmed. Especially public defenders, mostly public defenders. Judges are bored, or they have been in the job too long. And now they are calloused to the system, and they start to take on this image a god. And juries, they're supposed to be 12 unbiased people, but they're never going to be unbiased. Talking about unconscious bias, right? They're never going to be unbiased. Because they do not have your standard everyday person walk around in the world focused on you know, food, water, electricity, rent, their kids, their families do not understand the weight of the judicial system on people today. What they know is from Law and Order, and from the 24-hour news cycle that sensationalizes everything. And so of course, we are going to be doing this backward. And so I do this work. If I could do every bit of my work for free. I would. But we live in a capitalist society, and I go at that opportunity for rent.
Alexis 13:33
I mean, that is a discussion that Linet and I have I think, at least every other week on the reg.
Linet 13:40
Yeah.
Alexis 13:42
Yeah. Like, if we could do this for free, why can't we do this for free? Yeah, Lily, thank you for sharing all that. That's really, I know, even with the number of conversations that we've already had you and I feel like I just learned even more and got a lot more, ‘cause myself for introspection and going like, oh, man, these are the internalized messages that we've all been given since we were two years old. Hmm.
Linet 14:17
Cops and robbers, anybody I absolutely detest that game.
Lily 14:22
Thank you, Alexis, for saying that. First of all, and I hope that you do take more time to introspect, it is the single most destructive force directly to communities right now that is the least seen. There are plenty of things in our political spheres and in the way we've governed in this country that are destructive to communities, and we can certainly talk about that. And the criminal justice system is insidious in its effect. If one person decides to take a deeper look, they are then going to be able to affect the people around them in some way. And if that is the case, then you know, every stone creates a ripple when it's down, right? If we can create even the smallest amount of curiosity in these areas, it's going to have an effect.
Alexis 15:24
You know, it's making me think of a quote that I think about a lot from Dr. Cornel West, who said, “justice is what love looks like in public.” Right. And he was talking about social justice, like social justice movements. But I think it’s also like, wow, what a radical reimagining that would be of our justice system, if instead of going for punitive all the time, we thought like, okay, if justice is what love looks like in public, how do we love this person?
Lily 15:57
That's amazing. Cornel West, smart guy, love Cornel, he's pretty smart guy. Pretty smart.
Linet 16:07
I think this is going to really bring it home to a lot of our listeners, and has also brought it home to me. This is a ton of work. I don't imagine you work on your own. But you know, who do you work with? What partners do you have in this? You have collaborators? Are there specific types of folks that you work with? As you know, the families? Are the people that are going into the incarceration system? What does that look like?
Lily 16:36
I run a consultancy with my partner, not my romantic partner, my business partner, the name of our company is Zoukis Consulting Group. And we are a full-service prison consulting group, I hate the name prison consulting. But that's the name of the industry. That's kind of the niche. We do not consult for prisons, we consult against prisons, I guess you could say, and we, both of us are formerly incarcerated people. And our focus is on giving our clients maximum amount of benefit by using Bureau of Prisons and Department of Corrections policy against itself. What you can think of is that - so the Federal Bureau of Prisons, right, is the the federal arm of the Justice Department that handles incarceration, there are 100 - and, Lord, I don't even know the exact number anymore. There are 100+ federal prisons in the United States, and the Federal Bureau of Prisons makes policy that governs how those institutions are to be run, and what privileges and what have you that inmates have inside of those prisons. However, we have to remember that the Federal Bureau of Prisons and each State Department of Corrections, so each state has its own department of corrections, there's no centralized rule that governs state facilities for incarceration, the only thing that governs that is constitutional rights. And there are certain federal provisions in laws that do have impact there. But Department of Corrections has wide, wide authority to make rules and policy. So what you have to remember is those are bureaucracies. And those policies are written by bureaucrats who have most of the time have zero investment in the rehabilitation of the individuals who are housed. What we do is when an individual who's incarcerated is, when a person who is incarcerated is having an issue, for example, let's say that they are being retaliated against by a staff member because they complained about the staff member to that staff member’s superiors. Well, there are policies and laws that govern retaliation by staff? And so what we do is we dig into that policy, we find where that policy states clearly what isn't, is not allowed. And then we draft the inmate request or administrative remedy paperwork for that inmate to send up the chain. And in some cases, we will actually do an outreach to a staff member within that system to say, “Hey, this is what we're hearing from our client. Is there something that you would like to say about that, something you would like to investigate there, something you would like to do about that? Because, obviously, if it's happening, you don't want that, per your policy. It's not allowed.” And on the other side of that, if we can use Bureau of Prisons policy or established law - though we aren't lawyers, we are consultants, so we don't do direct legal work or give legal advice, we have partner attorneys that we do work with - if there is a piece of law that we can use to cause a benefit to be had or a change to be made in the life of an incarcerated person, we use that to do that. And it's amazing because what we end up seeing is that the staff members have not been appropriately trained on what the policy actually states and how it's supposed to be applied. And so then we come in, and we go, “Hey, this is our day-to-day job, it not only impacts our clients, but when we were incarcerated and impacted us, and we made it our life's work to understand it, we're going to lay it out really clearly for you, which means less work for you. And it's going to show you where you've misapplied it.” And by doing that, we hope we hope that the staff will understand better the policy, and at least the staff will not have a choice. But to do the thing that is right.
Linet 21:16
Because then they know it's not just the exact person that's incarcerated. It's them and the person that's incarcerated, and these consultants that are connected to lawyers that you know, that's accountability, right?
Lily 21:31
They're accountability, right? Accountability and responsibility are so important. When we're talking about criminal justice, accountability and responsibility are what we want people who have offended to have, we want to show them what accountability and responsibility is, so that they can lean into that. So that they can rehabilitate, and so that those around them who have been harmed can be restored in some way. We don't do that. We don't, we do not do that. There is no rehabilitation in prison that is centered. Rehabilitation is not the central focus of incarceration. And it never has been, the only thing that we are doing right now is warehousing bodies, we are finding ways to pack as many humans into boxes as possible. That is all we are doing.
Alexis 22:36
It's so awful, like just thinking about all of it and thinking like, this is our, quote unquote, “solution” to whatever we perceive as societal problems. And I will definitely say, whatever we perceive as societal problems, because of course, crime is a social construct, like what we call crime, or don't call crime, that's a social construct. What we decide we want to or don't want to send people to prison for is a construct, right? Even just looking at stuff around wage theft, and things like that. And the differences in prosecution between what we kind of generally think of as theft versus wage theft, and how that differs there. And it's just absurd that this is how we think that we as a nation think that this is somehow a solution.
Lily 23:25
There really isn't an example in the United States of a whole-cloth program in custody that is built for rehabilitation, there just isn't. And what I mean by whole-cloth is an entire buy-in by the system or by a facility for a specific rehabilitative cause, through a rehabilitative framework, which contains programming that actually does the work. You cannot find it.
Alexis 23:58
And you just said in the US? Are there other countries that you know about that if introduced more holistic, more actually rehabilitative programs?
Lily 24:09
Absolutely. All you have to do is look to Europe. Germany has a fantastic system. So a few years back, Germany instituted this really interesting program for individuals who are considered younger offenders, so youth and young adult offenders. They built a prison that was in the middle of a town in the middle, not separated out, not out in the country, in the middle of this, you know, fairly large community. They didn't build it as a prison, so to speak. It is a confinement facility, but the individual is housed there, have rooms with balconies that they can walk out onto and look out at the city. interact with people walking by every day. Those who live there must go out into the community to their job. They work at a job, they make bonds with the community; every evening, they come back. Now, these are not just, you know, nonviolent, low-level offenders, these are people who have a broad range of offenses, but they have been given a basis for understanding and it and investment as self-investment in community, which, of course, is an investment in themselves. And so, what happens is community members actually meet with these individuals, before they even go out into the community, they build a bond, they build, and they have these interactions that build closeness. And if not closeness, at least, a mutual understanding of benefits. And so the individuals begin to invest in themselves by investing in how they interact with their community, they start to see that the worth of others is equal to their own worth, which of course, is reflective, right, it builds. So there, any shame that they may have, any sense of guilt that they may have, they start to be able to unpack that in the reflection of the good that is being reflected to them from the community. It's a fantastic system. And it's been successful. Sweden, oh, my goodness, the Nordic countries, I can't even. So in Sweden, they have a maximum security prison that looks like a beautiful, it’s like a college campus, you have these big giant windows in the common area with sunlight coming through, huge art spaces where individuals can do whatever art their heart desires. There's a certain percentage of the taxes that come in that must be spent by law, on community art projects on public art. And so artists come into the prison and paint these beautiful murals on the walls. The interactions with staff are supportive. So when people go to the prison, they aren't, you know, dehumanized immediately. They meet with counselors, they meet with mental health professionals, they're treated with respect in their day-to-day life. And what happens is, you see it, it is quantifiable, you can see the change, the numbers do not lie. And so these systems have been built to provide individuals with the understanding that their actions have an impact not only on themselves, but on their communities. And that the more they lean into choosing to consider others, as they consider themselves, the better chance they have of integrating into community in real and deep ways that are restorative and beneficial to both them and others. And in our country, we have, we have the single most punitive justice system in the world. 5% of the population of the planet, 25% of the prison population, we incarcerate more people in this country than any other country on the planet, including, we actually incarcerate more people than like the next five countries combined, the system we have. So if you want to talk penological history in the United States, I'm totally willing to do that. But it was not built for restoration. It was built to be punitive. That's not it's the tip of the iceberg.
Alexis 28:46
It really is. As you were talking, I did a quick Sweden Google search and like one of the first things that came up with: they refer to their, the people who are in their prisons, as clients, not prisoners. Exactly what, like, mind-blowing shift.
Lily 29:06
Right.
Alexis 29:09
That's incredible.
Lily 29:10
Language, just language.
Alexis 29:13
Yeah. How differently would you treat somebody if you thought like, “prisoner” versus “client,” like “this is somebody that I am serving as part of serving society?”
Lily 29:23
It's a complete paradigm shift. It changes the way that you see the person, the language you use. A client, when I call somebody my client, it means that I have a personal or professional or both investment in their life.
Alexis 29:41
Speaking of clients, the clients that you work with, are they just local to the Bay Area? Are they in California? Are they across the country? Are you focusing on specific communities or incomes or anything like that?
Lily 29:53
It's a great question. And so we work with people across the country. So I have clients who are in Florida, Oklahoma, Maine, and New York, people in Montana, Wyoming, had a client who was in Puerto Rico, because we have a federal prison in Puerto Rico. Yeah, we work nationally with anybody who, who is currently going through that situation. And we don't necessarily focus on individuals from specific communities. It is, as I said before, unfortunate that we live in a capitalist society, and we have to be able to sustain our business and sustain our personal lives. And so we, you know, certain people who are under economic stress or financial stress will not be able to afford the retainer payment for our firm, however, we pride ourselves on at minimum, giving immediate, direct guidance to the people that we interact with, on how to do it. So if somebody calls and they say, “Hey, I cannot afford your fees, I'm just looking for internet information,” I will spend an hour on the phone with them, giving them guidance on what they need to do, and some tips and tricks to kind of move the ball along. And the goal for our firm is - so we've been around for a few years. But you know, it's been a slow burn expansion as my business partner has been going through law schoo, and a move and a wedding, and I have had transitions in my life where I've had to move and change jobs. And so we are, you know, we're in a slow expansion. But the goal has always been to eventually use the firm's financial stability, to provide low-cost sliding scale or no-cost help to those who cannot necessarily afford our fees. That's the eventual goal, to have a pro bono side to all of this. Because the truth is that, though I love the work that I am doing, and it's good work, and we do really good work in our firm, we pride ourselves on being ethical and transparent with our clients and making sure that our work can bring immediate benefit. However, I also understand that the work I'm doing, the fact that we are charging a cost for our work. That is hard for me sometimes, as a person who went through the system and understanding how anxiety-inducing and how perilous it can feel, and how alone you can feel. There are many spurious actors out there in the industry that I work in, who will exploit that. And we do our best not to exploit that. Yeah, it can be difficult. My desire is to deconstruct, dismantle, and fundamentally change the way in which we approach justice in this country, on every level. And so I'm doing my level best in the work I'm doing to create the circumstance where I'm not only providing information, but I'm learning as I go. every situation, every person, every family is different. And their perspective, and their need is going to be different. And so it's a constant sense of growth.
Alexis 33:21
It's, yeah, that growth mindset. I mean, Linet and I have the same thing, like: we are the experts, when we get hired, right, we get hired to be experts, but even then, we're always trying to keep learning, and we do interviews with a lot of our clients, the staff of our clients before and after workshops, and we learn things ourselves through those interviews.
Linet 33:48
It feels like night and day between the description of just the bare bones ,because I'm sure the reality is like, so much more than we could even possibly cover in this podcast, but does the bare bones of some of these European systems that actually focus on rehabilitation? In the US systems, I would just like - you know, you're talking about clients, you're talking like humanizing, you're talking about connecting, you're talking about empathy, you know, and you're talking about holistic, life experiences for folks in Europe. Whereas here, I can't even begin to recount the ways in which, you know, not only are there so many stereotypes about people that are currently incarcerated, will be incarcerated, or have been incarcerated. But just the language I mean, I was just thinking about when you mentioned even the ways like the laws are written, the way the policies are written, the way even the court systems are working. Like, you know, we've had so many folks on this podcast tell us about their awful experiences of, for example, discrimination, sexual harassment at work. And they know that nothing's going to happen, because if it's not illegal, if it's not a crime, the company's not going to do anything about it. So we're talking about dehumanization of people that are going through our prison system, our justice system, but it also extends down to people that aren't, you know, haven't had a connection yet or don't know that they have a connection yet to how we get treated in the workplace. Like, it's really all-encompassing. And it's so broke. I mean, it's so wrong. I keep on thinking like, it's still echoing in me, the - I forget exactly what the phrase you said, but the prison system is all about how many people we can fit in boxes. Like, I'm sure 99%, every listener had the image of enslavement, right? Because that's where people were first put in boxes that I know of, right? Like that was the treatment. It is dehumanization, it's intentional, I'm just still reeling from that. So I'm still processing all of that. Lily, this is just, I'm so glad you're on this podcast.
Lily 36:39
I'm so glad to be here I am. This is my, my biggest joy. And my you know, my Buddhist teacher used to call me her hammer. Because I used to approach the world as if everything was a nail that needed to be hammered down. And so this is - these conversations, these subjects are my joy, as well as the thorn in my side, these are the things that keep me up at night. They also are the things that propel me into this work and into my social justice, advocacy and into trying my best to grow in ways that provide stability, and that provide at least some sense of spaciousness to those around me to be able to lean into, into that change, to deconstruct the kind of fear-based responses and approaches we have to these things.
Linet 37:52
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. All right, folks, it's time for a short break. We're gonna listen to some messages and then we'll be right back with Lily.
Seth 38:12
Hi, everyone, this is Seth and I am one of the audio editors and volunteers here at UBP. The Unconscious Bias Project brings creative, accessible, evidence-based solutions for unintentional bias to academic, technological, governmental organizations, and beyond. We sustain a welcoming home for inquisitive and creative minds and encourage a growth mindset. Working by the model of “0% Guilt, 100% Empowerment.” Please subscribe or follow our Facebook and Instagram for the latest in events and how you can learn more and be involved. Also, take a look and check out our guest's website and learn more. Look for that information in the description section of your podcast or on our website.
Linet 39:10
Alright, everybody, welcome back. We're here with Lily. And we're about to shift topics a little bit to something some of our listeners may not consider is actually pretty related to justice reform. And that's queer rights and LGBTQ+ advocacy. But before we shift, Lily, to take the opportunity here to preface this, how are queer rights and justice reform linked? What is the overlap there?
Lily 39:37
Oh, man. Yeah, that's a huge question. If we think about marginalization, right? So if we think about the justice system as a whole, the justice system is built to other, right, that's what it's built to do. It's built on othering. It takes certain people and makes them other by dehumanizing, it separates them out as abnormal. Right, it gives something for society to reflect against as “this is bad, and this is good.” And we know in the LGBTQ communities, that we are a marginalized section of the populace. And that marginalization is inbuilt to our systems. And so, in the course, on the carceral side, if you think about dehumanization of each individual, that is each person that is incarcerated, right, and it starts from day one. Now, think about you take a person who is from the LGBTQIA+ community, who has already been told by society that they are separate, that they are out there. And now you compound that, in the carceral system, in the justice system, we're on a podcast called unconscious bias. Think about the people involved in the prosecution and defense of crime. How many people are involved in that, in a single case, you have the judge, you have the prosecution's office, you don't have a prop, just a single prosecutor, you have an office involved. If the defense attorney, if a person can afford an attorney, if all of those people involved, if they can't, you have the center of the public defender, right. But all of those people come from some life experience that is going to affect how they see that LGBTQIA person, that queer person, and the unconscious biases are going to play out in how that person is affected by the system, how they are prosecuted, more indirectly. The carceral system, the justice system, is a child of our political system, of the consciousness that built this country, is political framework. If we think about the criminal justice system, and we think about social justice, these two things are not mutually exclusive. They are intimately entwined, that the philosophies that our justice system was built on are the same ones that are affecting our social justice spheres. The othering of humans, by the justice system, is the same othering you see in our social justice spheres, there's no separation there, it's the exact same attitude, it is taking a section of our populace and seeing them as less valuable, as in the worst cases as abhorrent. And so when we think about it, from the queer community, in this country, over the last 80 or so years, the queer community has been villainized, we have been seen as a threat to the safety and security of the populace. And you could say that you could take that very phrase I just said, and you could just take it whole as it is and place it over on the same individuals who are being incarcerated. You know, when we saw the first real standardized criminalization of individuals in the queer community, when we started to see that really play out. It wasn't different, quote, unquote, “criminality” had already been treated in this country. And so there is a deep thread, philosophical and political and ideological thread, that pervades both sides of this. And I say, both sides, it's really just two sides of the same coin. And this is such a deep subject. I mean, we could talk for the next 20 hours probably on this and not get through it all, queer folk who are incarcerated. Now you get into a whole different - this is, the layers become even deeper, it becomes an infinite cake. Not very tasty cake. But still, it's a cake system, dehumanizes individuals that go into it, people that go into the carceral system are immediately devalued and seen as less than. It happens immediately the minute somebody is arrested or accused. Now imagine you're a queer person, and you enter the carceral system. Let me pause for a second. Let's say a person has committed a robbery and they go to prison when they enter the prison general population. They are going to be assessed for whether or not they can be victimized. They are going to be assessed as to whether or not they are strong enough to join a car, which is a group of individuals or a gang, or if they are someone who can be used to gain something. And the level to which they are going to find any sense of safety and comfort will be based on those perceptions. Perception is reality, in life. And in prison, it is exacerbated to the nth degree. Now, imagine you're a queer person who goes to prison. Now, prison culture is based on machismo, right? In male, quote, unquote, “male prison culture.” Now I'm a trans person, transgender person, I was transitioning while I was in federal prison, and I was housed in men's prisons. So this is the perspective I'm giving, I've never been to a female, quote unquote, “female prison.”They had, there was, it's very different there from what I have been told, but in the male side of the carceral system, if you are a queer person, you are immediately less valuable, you are immediately seen as less than by the people around you, who are already othered by the system. And this is the effect of our carceral system, people who are imprisoned, internalize the shame and othering that they have, that they've been subjected to. And they start to reflect that out. And this is a bid for safety. This is a bid for territory to feel secure in your prison experience. This is the effect of our philosophies, our ideologies, and how we've built these systems. So a queer person enters prison, they are immediately, immediately under threat, both from staff and from the inmate population, from the other incarcerated people. You have a person who when they weren't incarcerated was already told by a large section of our population, including many, many, many elected leaders who get plenty of face time on news, what have you. And of course, social media is a place that will show you exactly how people feel about you. So there's already this sense of insecurity in your community, as a queer person, a sense of instability, and a sense of a sense that you are not necessarily as safe as the quote unquote, “average everyday American,” which doesn't exist. And then you enter the carceral system, and you see exactly what that looks like. When it is distilled down to its essence, you are living every single day under the threat of physical violence, sexual assault, and at minimum, the constant reminder that those around you see you as less than human.
Alexis 48:12
What can people do? If I'm listening to this podcast? And I'm like, “this is the opposite of justice,” right? This is injustice, what can the average person do to help here?
Lily 48:23
Vote, for crying out loud! Educate yourself, to understand how your community is being negatively affected by the carceral system. When you walk around in your everyday life, you are interacting with individuals who are formerly incarcerated, period. Every single day, if you leave your home, wherever you go, someone who is formerly incarcerated is near you. Even if you don't know them, the ways in which people interact in their communities are deeply affected by the carceral system and the justice system. And if you believe that you can live your life and never have to deal with any of that, never have to understand the impact of that, you are willfully ignorant, and you are harming yourself in your community. If you really want to understand these things, you need to invest your time and energy into educating yourself about the carceral system. You read books, The New Jim Crow, these other books that are out there, start educating yourself. Start communicating with others in your community about it, and vote, vote, vote, vote for your interest. “Tough on crime” does not mean safer, people. We have to be better about this. Speak to people, search out people who are formerly incarcerated. If you know somebody who knows somebody and if you can gently ask if you can speak to them, because you want to educate yourself about that experience, do so. Exposure therapy in these areas is a great way to start getting involved in your direct advocacy organizations, all you have to do is get on Google, you'll find them right up, you know, go to a letter writing, sit in, where people write letters to incarcerated people, you know, invest your time, invest your energy, you can do it, I promise.
Alexis 50:26
Thank you so much for letting us know what we can do. We want to ask, Do you have any resources that you want to plug for our listeners today that you haven't mentioned yet? Any people that you want to thank or organizations that you want to promote? And is there anything else that you're doing that we should keep an eye out for?
Lily 50:47
Oh, cool. Yeah, I want to shout out to my personal incarcerated community, first and foremost. Without them, I may not have survived prison, I may not have been able to make it through it and come out the person I was born to be. I am who I am because you are who you are, or they were who they were. So then first and foremost, to Black and Pink, which is a queer-focused, trans-focused advocacy organization that is national, to Black and Pink, to all your chapters out there. And I know there's some stuff going on out there. But stay strong. We love you. And we thank you, and Human Rights Project, awesome organization that really is focused, Anti-Defamation League, keep doing the work you're doing. There are so many, and I hope we do a part two, and I will bring an entire list of all of the organizations, I want to shout out to things that I am doing. Well, okay. You can probably find me on YouTube soon, with Zoukis Consulting Group, putting out some videos about federal incarceration and navigation of that. And I'm hoping very soon to be involved in a documentary about incarcerated folks. So I will keep y'all posted. I can't give any details yet, because we're still in negotiation with a very large streaming service. But hopefully soon, and I do want to give a shout-out to Unconscious Bias Project, y'all are doing amazing work. And I am super appreciative that you are stepping into these spheres, to not only provide a platform, but to educate yourself and to become more full members of your community in a real way. Let's work to heal the world. It's the only way we're going to survive.
Linet 52:42
Very last question, and thank you. Let's say somebody on this podcast know somebody who might need your help. How do they find you? What's the website of your firm? How do they beat you?
Lily 52:55
Sure. So our firm, you can go to www.prisonerresource.com. And you'll be able to go on there. Our website is huge and has so much information already that you can just go through and read and educate yourself. And if you want to get a hold of me, you can email me at lily@prisonerresource.com. If you go to our website, you'll see a booking tab, click it, you can schedule a 20-minute free consultation with me. We don't use a call service. I am the one who answers those calls. I am the one who does the consultations because we want people who are going through this to actually have someone who's gone through it on the phone with them. And so yeah, you can get a hold of me in any of those ways. And I look forward to doing more of these conversations with y'all and I appreciate you so much,
Alexis 53:54
Thank you. Thank you so much, Lily.
Linet 53:57
That was amazing.
Lily 54:00
Thank you.
Seth 54:05
Thanks for listening. You can find more information and donate at unconsciousbiasproject.org. Dr. Linet Mera, she/her, and Alexis Krohn, she/her, are your hosts. Seth Boeckman, he/they, is your editor. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and follow us. We can be found on Facebook at Unconscious Bias Project, Twitter at UBP_stem, LinkedIn, Instagram, or join our mailing list. UBP is a fiscally sponsored project of the Social Good Fund, a tax-deductible 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. If you wish to sponsor us, please contact us in the contact us tab at unconsciousbiasproject.org.