Episode 16 - Viv Tran - For Love of People
Published on: Nov 18, 2021
We’re really excited for you to listen to this podcast with our buddy Viv Tran. We talked about everything from middle school and college hopes. To what's seriously wrong with government, philanthropy, and nonprofit, to what's actually working. How people are disrupting these faces and I think what stuck with me and I hope we'll stick with you is a call to action - that you can actually impact any space for where you are, you consider that the more we work together the more we share the more we can positively make change. so enjoy.
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Murder of Vincent Chin
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“Every job, every industry does have such a great social impact - and you can bring social impact to every role.”
Transcript
Linet 00:01
Hi, everybody, I'm really excited for you to listen to this new podcast with our buddy, Viv. We talked about everything from, you know, middle school and college hope, to what's seriously wrong with government and philanthropy and nonprofit, to what's actually working, how people are disrupting these spaces, and I think what stuck with me, and I hope will stick with you, is a call to action that you can actually impact any space for you are where you are, you know, consider that the more we work together, the more we share, the more we can positively make change. So enjoy.
Hi, everyone, hola a todes, Linet here.
Alexis 00:55
And Alexis,
Linet 00:58
your co-hosts, both she/her, bringing you impactful stories and interviews from our communities and your communities, to bring you some of our favorite people to tell you about their experiences, viewpoints, and the topics that matter to them the most so that we can all support each other after our last episode. With Amelia, it made me kind of reflect on the fact that we actually do land acknowledgments in our talks and workshops. And we haven't done so in our podcasts. I sort of had this idea that we were just disembodied everywhere in the ether. But that's not really true. We do exist on actual land. So we want to change that from now onwards. So the Unconscious Bias Project and its podcasts are based in the San Francisco Bay Area in California on unceded ancestral homeland that belongs to the Ramaytush, Ohlone, and Muwekma Ohlone peoples, some of whom speak Cocheno. And we really encourage you, our listeners, to learn more about the Ohlone people on our website and in the podcast links.
I'd like to introduce an excellent human being and UBP partner in outreach shenanigans, Viv Tran - pronouns she/her. Viv is the podcast host for "What Gives?", a Texas based-organizer, and an emerging leader in the philanthropy space. She has over a decade of experience working in the nonprofit space in mainly AAPI and migrant-focused organizations in the Midwest. She has dedicated her career to strengthening diverse communities through education, civic investment, and storytelling. And for those of you super UBP fans, you may recognize her name from our “Stop AAPI Hate and Activate” outreach event earlier in July. So welcome, Viv.
Viv 02:44
Hey, Linet; Hey, Alexis, it is - I'm so happy to be here. And we really have, we met, I think, a couple months ago. And we've just been doing a ton of projects together. So I love that. And I'm so excited to be here.
Alexis 02:57
Yeah, we're so excited to have you to kick us off. Can you tell us a little bit about, what is "What Gives?" And how did you start it?
Viv 03:07
So "What Gives?" is - I feel like all great ideas start this way. But I work in the philanthropy space, and I've been having these wonderful conversations with the people that I work with, both local nonprofits to giant NGOs. And I kept telling my partner about all these great conversations and he was like, “you really should just put it in some blog or some form.” And so I wanted to start a blog. But he's like, “You talk so much, you should just record yourself talking.” So that's pretty much how we started "What Gives?". It was my first podcast, my first experience podcasting. And so it is still very much a nitty-gritty - it's in the works. And yeah, and I reached out to Linet to be on the podcast. She knows how it went down, the disorganization of it all.
Linet 04:05
No, no. I try really hard not to interrupt our guests, but I have to interrupt this. This is - I honestly and with all due respect, very emphatically disagree. Viv is a great speaker and facilitator and she led an awesome podcast. She's very organized, very thoughtful, actually. It's because you're such a deep thinker that I think we had such an awesome conversation on your podcast and I was left with such a great impression that I was like, “I have to work with Viv again, she is on the same wavelength of like thinking deeply and really testing boundaries of what we accept as okay and normal.” And I think that's really - it's you and us together, and how you think that we were able to even come up with “Stop AAPI Hate and Activate.” So apologies for the interruption.
Viv 05:03
That is so sweet.
Linet 05:04
I can't have you dragging "What Gives?"
Viv 05:06
Yeah, so it is very new, it is, you know, my baby. And we do explore a lot of philanthropy topics on the podcast, and a lot of justice topics, societal topics, things that are happening, where we keep evolving, so I guess it changes a lot. And like Linet says, I love bringing on new and refreshing ideas from folks like folks from UBP. So So yeah, that's pretty much what it is. And we're hoping to launch our next season in the next couple months.
Linet 05:44
So that's awesome. Congratulations. That's great. And you're doing all of this outside of your nine to five, right? This isn't, you're not just like, working on the podcast. Sorry.
Viv 05:56
Right. So nine to five, I do, I work at a philanthropy consultancy. So philanthropy’s, you know, my nine to five, my five to nine, and I absolutely love it. It's a space that is growing so much and a space that I love researching, talking about, and just working in. So I'm super excited to talk about it today.
Linet 06:18
How did you come up with the name for "What Gives?" Why is it "What Gives?"?
Viv 06:24
Oh my gosh, that is all so - so I saw, the name "What Gives?" is - I don't think it was my idea. I think I said it out loud to a group of my friends. And the podcast was actually going to be named something kind of silly, because I didn't know how to make it about philanthropy and also incorporate that it was a podcast. So I was like throwing around “Podlanthropy” or something crazy like that. And then we were like, “Okay, that's not going to work.” And I think one of my friends or, I think it might have been my partner was like, "What Gives?" Like, you know, everything you do has to do with giving and sharing of ideas and resources and stuff like that. And you're always asking, like "What Gives?", you know, why? Like, what is happening? Like, why is this happening? So you should make it kind of a prompt. So it was my idea that I shouldn't really figure out who whose idea was, so I could be rightfully ungrateful. Um, yeah, that's, that's pretty much how the name came about. And then when we created the logo, it just looked amazing. And it all came together.
Linet 07:33
That's really cool. That's a nice story.
Alexis 07:37
How did you get started in philanthropy and nonprofits and everything like that in the first place?
Viv 07:41
It was my first job, actually - I was 16. And I had this amazing AP US History teacher in high school, he was just very involved in the community, very involved in the AAPI community. He's Asian also. And then he was also the teacher advisor to our student organization, an Asian American Club. During high school, there was a lot of diversity at my high school. So I'm super thankful for that. And he was the one who was like, “there's this internship that's going on.” And I think I was still very young. And I hadn't had a job yet, I think at that point. And he told us, “you know, there's a stipend. These are obviously things that we've been talking about in class, are you interested?” He hooked us up, me and my sister. So we both did this internship. And that was pretty much the first time that I worked for a nonprofit organization. It was “AAPI Vote.” And we did voter registration for that. We just went to different communities, diverse communities, and we mobilized those communities to register to vote, you know, raise their civic participation. And I was hooked on that. And I tried so many other things throughout college. But everything always came back to working for organizations that have that sort of mission that feels very close to you. Yeah. Ever since then, I just kept working at an - either working or volunteering or serving on a board of a nonprofit. And I think at that, at this point, it's been 14 years. So so that's pretty much how I got started. I never left. Really, I've worked in tech for like a year. I think I need to go back I need to do something that has some sort of social impact. And that interests me so that's how I got started.
Alexis 09:41
Yeah, working for social impact organizations is so clutch.
Viv 09:47
I think that was very idealistic going into it. But now that I've been in the field for a few years, I do, I'm starting to think that every job, every industry, does have such a great social impact, and you can bring social impact to absolutely every role.
Alexis 10:07
You know, I think about how California has recently - and by recently, I mean, like the past decade sometime - opened up the possibility for even, you know, for-profit companies to set up in their bylaws and everything like that, that they have social responsibility, and to acknowledge that explicitly when they set up so that they don't have to be beholden to just you know, maximizing profit, but they can build themselves with a to a higher standard, to a different standard of how they conduct their business.
Viv 10:39
Yeah. And it is so important for everybody to be involved in something that is mission-oriented, and also has a great social impact, right? We can't do it all by ourselves. So yeah, I think that's amazing.
Linet 10:53
A long, long, long time ago, in a land far, far away, back when I was about to finish graduate school, and I was looking at careers, I really considered going into something like project management consulting. At the time, the consulting groups that went and recruited at UCSF - Boston Consulting Group came by, and I was interested in them because they were the ones that actually had some sort of work-life balance. They were like, “yeah, no, you wouldn't, you wouldn't be asked to work more than 60 hours a week like that. We don't do that.” And so I was like, “Okay, that sounds great. That seems like it, that seems like work-life balance.”
Alexis 11:41
“work-life balance is not “more than 60 hours a week.”
Linet 11:45
You know, we shouldn't have somebody from Deloitte come and talk like our advisor. Anyway, so I was looking into management consulting, and so I still read a Boston Consulting Group newsletter, they have reports on a whole bunch of stuff, they essentially gathered some information and got some interviews with people, Asian and Eastern European, you know, big conference, and people were talking about the state of, of business, just like business in general, how are things going? What are the trends? Because that's what Boston Consulting Group does. They're like, “here are the trends, here's what you should do.” And one of the things that came up was that both environmental sustainability as well as social impact is becoming more desirable in a business because customers and clients are expecting that. And in the report, you know, the people they interviewed, it said, you know, yeah, before, this was like, a thing that, like, somebody gave a presentation, and they're like, no, actually, it is - you can be profitable. And just as profitable as you were before, if you now include environmental and social impact, like you can still have both. I know, this is how some organizations, some people think or have to think, or this is the way business works. And not everything can be happy unicorns, in Disney movies, and in the perfect life, and we do exist in a capitalistic society. And it's not. But it struck me that there are still people that think that they don't have a responsibility for how you exist in the world, that you don't have a responsibility for how you're treating people, or what kind of impact you're making on local business or international business or your business partner is, and that examining that would cost you money. And then therefore you shouldn't do that. I just - one, it was still a little a little bit jarring. But two, it also reminded me that so many more people, like you were saying, are examining their businesses are examining how they're doing things and are considering “No, actually we want to do things a little different.” And as Alexis said, you know, things like actually incorporating as a benefit corporation have become options and customers, you know, consumers are looking for, you know, “is it, you know, woman-owned? Is it BIPOC-owned? How sustainable is the business? What's the carbon footprint” You know, actually, you know, trying to, with their dollars or with their choices, or you know, who they're following on social media or wherever, what stories they're sharing, like, are people doing good? It's an interesting and a complex thing. We're looking to corporations for doing this, and not to like our government to make sure you know, this is the way we operate.
Viv 14:56
And I do want to call out, something that I looked at a lot, look at, in terms of statistics that are happening in the social impact space. It's called “Engaged for Good.” And they have this guide, and - called “Statistics every cause marketer should know,” and have pages and pages on just statistics on why businesses should partner with a, partner with an organization, or partner within the social impact space. It has statistics, like 80% of executives know now more than ever that companies must lead with purpose. It has racial equity statistics about how people feel that companies should conduct themselves during protests, and how executives should acknowledge the role of business in perpetuating systemic racial inequities. It's very interesting, and I would push everyone to kind of look at it. And I think BCG did also come out with a study about corporate social responsibility and how it does help business and the bottom line because you're right, we live in a capitalistic society, you know, those need to get paid, you know, paychecks need to get paid. So it is important for us to work with the cards that we've been given. But also know that there are opportunities here for us to move into the social impact space and to do more like you guys have been saying.
Linet 16:26
So I just pulled that up. And we're going to drop that in the links, because this looks really juicy. Cool.
Viv 16:33
I love it. And I think people should be pulling it up when they, when they do their reports for different organizations. I think it's so important because everybody is an expert in something right? When I work in the philanthropy space, and we only take on corporate partners, they're actually experts in things that that they don't know about, like the communities that make up their market. And what do they know about those communities? How can they help those communities? Like what value do they bring to those communities, and they reach out to us for expertise on how to connect with their community, and we reach out to them about, you know, who it is that they market to and who their communities are. So I think this partnership is amazing. And it's I think it's going to continue to grow. And I think a lot more students are realizing that mission and social impact is something that they want to incorporate into their careers. I've been talking to a ton of college students, really, and they - yeah, I have so much hope for the future. I think, honestly, if anyone wants to have some positive hope and optimism for the future, they should talk to college students. They have so many dreams. We're all just disillusioned in the corporate space. So yeah, that's been fun.
Linet 17:56
Alexis could say something about that. Right? Like, you see, Alexis was a teacher? Or is it once a teacher always a teacher? Yeah, once a teacher always a teacher? Yeah. For middle middle school students. So
Alexis 18:14
See, this is a soapbox, I will get on. Best. Oh, okay. So middle schoolers are like, the thing that I tell people about middle schoolers is that it's just that middle schoolers are like, developmentally incapable of feeling at less than 100%. That is so true. They're just like, developmentally, they're just incapable of feeling at less than 100%. So like, they can't be like, mildly annoyed at something. Like they're incapable.
Viv 18:49
That is so true. I was so dramatic, like 11, 12.
Alexis 18:54
Like, they, they hear that, like, if somebody does something to annoy them, they can't. They're, like, incapable of being mildly annoyed. And so instead, they come back, and they're like, this person has wronged me and my family for seven generations, you know, and so they then respond with the same intensity. But that can also like lead to amazing insight intensity on a lot of other fronts, like their view of the world is often so hopeful, as well. Like there is a kind of like, they can do anything, like they think they can do anything.
Viv 19:29
One of the organizations I mentored in law, I was a college student, actually, I worked with a lot of middle schoolers, and, they have some sort of moral code. So that they bind to and they hope that everybody else abides by and they just have such intensity. I guess they stick to it very well, and they kind of expect, they have high expectations for the rest of us. Yeah, I did not know you're a teacher.
Alexis 19:55
Yeah, I was a teacher for 12 years. Middle schoolers. Yeah, they're Incredible.
Linet 20:00
I wanted to come back around to that, though, because you mentioned, like your high school was really diverse. And it seemed like you had a really formative experience in high school. And you directly started working in AAPI impact space. So I kind of grew up around the world. And I always went to schools that had, you know, very international students, because it was a bunch of ex-pats, and you know, people looking to also learn English, or, you know, is a large city. And, you know, people come from all sorts of different places. And so there was a lot of diversity. And so I just sort of took, having international groups and people with really diverse experiences for granted, once I came to the US, and I went to, you know, a public high school, and then I went to a public college, and then I went and did a Ph.D. at UCSF, it was like, oh, there is a very few of us, that are here. Actually, one of the reasons why I ended up even going to UCSF was because the Bay Area was considered to be so diverse, but it felt a lot less intense, than you know, New York, for example. I mean, it has this different intensity I recognize now, but then, you know, sort of being stuck in or not stuck in, but then you know, sort of being, growing up, you know, in very diverse spaces, and then sort of learning the reality in adulthood that a lot of, you know, higher education and professional working spaces are not super diverse, and have all these issues. I'm wondering what your experience was with those transitions? And sort of, is that sort of why you continued in the AAPI and migrant impact spaces?
Viv 22:01
I think so. I think if I didn't have diverse experiences, I may have very well just fallen into, you know, doing what is more, I guess, financially responsible, you know, a more successful, I don't know, in general terms to others, because of the education that I had. It really drove us to explore ideas, explore other ideas, question everything. And this was not just my AP US History teacher, it was my - our - humanities teacher, it was a ton of great teachers that were at our high school, they really created that experience for me. And I think growing up in a diverse space does that to you, as well, it did really shape my experience. And then even when I went to college, I sought out diverse groups, people that had similar ideas to me, but also people that were very, very different people, that were, you know, international students, and those people ended up housing me when I was abroad. And it was great. Like those friendships continued to last, those formative years are, is what continues to drive me. We still talk about some of the things that we talked about while we were in high school, in those lectures, in those classes. So I think it's really important to have those diverse experiences. Not everybody grows up in that space, to seek it out through books, through videos, through online discussions, on webinars, on all these free events that happen online and within communities. Because you really could just learn so much and also get inspired and find your talents in this space.
Linet 23:51
Yeah. Where did you grow up, was it Chicago?
Viv 23:56
It was actually Michigan. It was just outside of Detroit, Michigan. It was called Canton, Michigan, and I went to Plymouth Canton High School. I don't know how much that means to anybody. But yeah, so I think Michigan is a really cool space, though, because there's - it was kind of a playground for some activists during the Civil Rights Movement. You know, Yuri Kochiyama, Grace Lee Boggs. They have programs and schools that they established there. I don't know if a lot of people know about Vincent Chin. But he was an Asian American that was killed the night before his wedding. It was a hate crime. It was two white males that, I think they were upset about the state of their jobs. And they blamed Asian Americans for taking their jobs and they took to the bat and he was killed. And so that started a lot of protests within the Michigan Community. A lot of Asian Americans started to mobilize at that point. And it was close to the other civil rights movements. And so there was a rich history there, that I think our, you know, our teachers and the organization that I worked with, that's what they taught us. And, yeah, I mean, it really inspired me to work more in this space, have these conversations, and it comes up today, you know, with all the Asian hate crimes that have been occurring. Yeah, I think Michigan is, was a pivotal point in shaping my career and shaping, you know, how I think about things.
Alexis 25:43
As well, to think just how much that all affects us.
Linet 25:47
I've been seeing a few memes of like, you know, what are they going to teach in history books, from 2020, and 2021?
Viv 25:58
There's a lot of history they need to squeeze in, I don't know what they're gonna pick.
Linet 26:03
I was thinking the other day, the recent six-week abortion ban in Texas, and thinking about how litigation and the laws and changes work in, I don't know if it's in every country, I haven't thought that deeply yet. But at least in the US, it feels like there's a certain critical number of people dying, that finally moves the needle somewhere. For people, like it just, you know, or one horrible incident that, you know, is the tipping point where people are like, “No, you know, this is enough,” like, “we have to change this. Now, this is just unacceptable.”
Viv 26:48
And I think it took it took the Asian American community a long time to get to that point. And that still, to this day, there are a lot of Asian Americans that aren't aware of Vincent Chin. And it's, it's really due to our education and what we decide to keep in and throw out. So it's funny that you brought up that meme.
Linet 27:10
I brought the abortion thing, because I feel like sometimes you think like, oh, “this is a law now,” or “this is a court decision now,” like Roe v. Wade was like, I learned about that in school. And I was like, “that is a thing.” And now, you know, I am protected. And anybody else who has a uterus and is in a situation where they're pregnant, and they don't, they don't want to be, or they don't need to be or, you know, whatever reasons are going on, they can make a choice for them. Like, that was my outcome. And it felt like such a stable, strong thing. And then, you know, seeing how, how not stable it is, or even, you know, even like protections for voting or, you know, from discrimination, you know, protections for, you know, for employment, regardless of gender, race, or sexual preference. Like these things that are our words don't necessarily, you know, happen and then affect life in perpetuity. It's not, you know, there are protests, there, schools made, there's - there are - things change, like I was thinking about Biden making declarations about the spate of you know, uptick, I should say, because it's not like it's never been there. But the uptick in AAPI-targeted racism. And violence is like, “Okay, we're gonna study that now.” And it's like, what is there to study? Like, people have been talking about this for a long time, it's not a new thing. It's just gotten worse. And like, it's nice that you said something about it, that's great that you want to put money towards it. But like, basically, I think we need like a deeper national reckoning with these issues of how we've shaped so much of our, of this country's, like, economics, culture, you know, expectations that work around white supremacy, that creates this other -ism, and then splits us all apart. Like that whole model minority myth, I think is just like, still continues to damage and still continues to like, wreak havoc, and I don't really think that the US, period, has really come to any sort of reckoning around, for example, Japanese internment camps, or use of, you know, immigrant Chinese labor, you know, as dirt cheap, you know, basically expendable lives to create major infrastructure and, you know, buildings, railroads, like all of these different things that are you know, now critical to the functioning of society. I don't actually know has there been like, a good record? I don't think there has been.
Viv 30:07
I think that's why people keep throwing around the words of reparations, because I think, to an extent, we can't just pick up and move on. And it becomes history, like, collective trauma is just passed down. And so I think our society is getting a little more sophisticated, a little bit more aware. And that's why reparations is such a big part of how we need to look at things nowadays. And also, we can't just move on and try to remedy situations with donations and awareness and campaigns and things like that, like, we really do need to repair what has been broken for a really long time, right? I do love that you kind of went into that, government. I really wanted to work in government for a long time, like I started out as a political science major when I was in college. And yeah, I think I was very interested in these topics. And you know, like, when you were talking about Roe v. Wade, like, it feels like, “Okay, that was Supreme Court decision, like we're good,” right, but now, we're not good. And so like, I, when I went to philanthropy, I always viewed philanthropy, as you know, we play a pivotal role in society covering the things, the essential things that the government was supposed to cover, and they're not. In the philanthropy space, there's so many organizations that are going to continue to advocate for women in situations that are not protected. Now, by the state of Texas, those organizations are going to continue to exist, even when the laws and the government strikes down the rights that we're supposed to have, right. So that's a really big part of philanthropy that I think we need to remember, like, we are supposed to cover a lot of things that the government's supposed to cover, and it's very sad. And of course, we hope that this space shouldn't, not to exist, right. Um, you know, a lot of things are happening in Texas that are very sad. But I just want to reassure people that the fight is not over. And there's organizations and people on the ground that are not going to let this go for decades.
Alexis 32:32
I think that's interesting that you said that you were almost going to go into government and politics, because when it is at its best, right, government is service, just like nonprofit and philanthropy. So another form of service of figuring out how we can each be best to each other and for each other.
Viv 32:53
And I also love that we went - so that social impact in the business space tangent, because I think it's also important now to recognize how philanthropy has been absolved into another entity that upholds our systems of oppression, and looks very much like our government in terms of bureaucracy, and how we structure things and how we even provide aid to communities, we look very much like the government, even though we're supposed to be covering their gaps, right. And so now we're moving into the space of businesses covering those gaps and individuals covering those gaps. So it is a very evolving space. And I do want to tie together everything that we've been talking about, because I think it really is all related.
Alexis 33:44
I would love to ask you more about that in just a moment. But I think we should go to break and then when we come back, I'll ask you about that. How's that sound?
Viv 33:55
Awesome. Yeah, I'm excited.
Seth [Break] 34:01
Hi, everyone, this is Seth and I am one of the audio editors and volunteers here at UBP. The Unconscious Bias Project brings creative, accessible, evidence-based solutions for unintentional bias to academic, technological, governmental organizations, and beyond. We sustain a welcoming home for inquisitive and creative minds and encourage a growth mindset. Working by the model of “0% Guilt, 100% Empowerment.” Please subscribe or follow our Facebook and Instagram for the latest in events and how you can learn more and be involved. Also, take a look and check out our guest's website and learn more. Look for that information in the description section of your podcast or on our website.
Alexis 34:47
We'd like to give a big shout-out to Bloomerang, who helps nonprofits interface productively with their donor base. They're sponsoring the next season of the UBP podcast and we're grateful for their generous support. We'd also like to thank CIELO and Bloomerang for sponsoring our “Be A Better Imposter” event, and UBP at Cal for sponsoring “Stop AAPI Hate and Activate” event, both from our Breaking Bread and Bias outreach campaign that just concluded. To learn more about the outreach campaign, watch recordings, and download resources, check them out on our website at ubproject.org/resources, and click on the events category. Make sure to sign up for the UBP newsletter at ubproject.org if you haven't already, so you can keep up with the latest news and get informed about the latest releases.
Once again, we've got Viv Tran here with us. I want to ask you, Viv, like, what are your feelings around all of that you said, you know, corporations are starting to take up this mantle of philanthropy even though there are, they are in some ways, right, that profit space is, in many ways, continuing oppression.
Viv 36:06
In some capacity, I am saying that. But I also want to acknowledge that everybody has to sort of work together and listen (I sound like I'm speaking out of a children's book). But yeah, I think it is very important for the philanthropy space, the government, and the business and individual space to be focused on the problems that affect them.
Alexis 36:31
Right. Yeah. And so I guess my question is, do you have any more feelings that you're thinking about, that you want to talk about, about just like, the stress and the push and pull between like philanthropy, and like the need for philanthropy.
Viv 36:46
So there's this term, is the nonprofit-industrial complex. And I don't know if y'all know about or have heard it being passed around. But it essentially talks about how we still use this top-down approach that upholds this system of inequity and, and keeps it in place, we look at the aid sector as a way of serving communities that are underserved. There's an ideology of like, inferiority that comes with that. And I think we need to break that down within the philanthropy space, and there's been, there's a lot of great work that's happening, to do that. And to kind of break this nonprofit industrial complex so that we can be a part of the community as we work with them. I would urge people to look at Community Centric Fundraising, on Instagram, on Twitter, they have a blog on the web. And they do a ton of research, and they have great pieces about this. I think this affects everybody that works in philanthropy, like, we all have to realize that we have to change how we've been doing our work, in terms of DEI, in terms of foundation work, in terms of grants, in terms of how we apply for grants, how we give out grants because it's not working anymore. I really believe everyone's feeling this in this space. So yeah, I think we all have very strong feelings about it. And it's exciting, though, because there are so many changes that are happening. And we're all learning so much.
Alexis 38:29
Yeah, so when you say it's not working anymore, what do you mean by that?
Viv 38:36
I mean, I think it's pretty clear that as we continue to sort of try to aid in different spaces, the things aren't changing, like the communities that are in need are still in need, you know, and we might provide some relief. But in the end, you know, if we disappear or something happens, that relief disappears. And that's not what we should strive for, right? Like we should strive to not be needed. That's where the nonprofit industrial complex comes in. But yeah, it doesn't seem to be working. If that's the case, if every single year, nothing really changes, we just continue to allocate donor dollars to a problem. The problem may change a little bit, but every few years, it'll come back, right.
Alexis 39:30
What do you see as the road towards fixing some of that? Do you see any particular path towards fixing that?
Viv 39:40
I do? I do. And I think I said this at the very beginning when I said that I had a lot of hope. But I, part of the reason I started the podcast also is because there are so many amazing organizations and mutual aid groups, and culture-changers, and activists. These are working on different issues. And I think, you know, as a community, it's becoming more complex, more diverse, our ideas, our solutions are becoming more complex and diverse. So I feel like there are a ton of great things that are going to come from this space. Like I said, Community-Centric Fundraising is something that I'm obsessed with. We'll see, we'll see how it works in a few decades, right, like how, how many things have changed, how many communities have been, have been supported out of their condition and out of their, their current state. So I guess, we'll just have to see, but I have a lot of hope. And all these organizations and all these young people that are doing amazing things in their cities and their towns.
Alexis 40:52
So that kind of reminds me, I was just looking into a bunch of history of my old neighborhood in Boston, Jamaica Plain. And I found out one of the ways that they started dealing with a lot of the effects of redlining was that they established a community mortgage fund, right, raised out of the community. Nobody swept in and you know, said like, “Oh, we're going to fix this problem.” Like, they banded together, put the funds together themselves, to bring that community mortgage fund together to help their own community.
Viv 41:20
That's amazing. And, Alexis, I feel like you should explain to the audience what redlining is, because I had this conversation earlier. And I feel like people don't know what it is and how it holds people back.
Alexis 41:31
Oh, that makes me frustrated, not frustrated with the people who don't know what it is, but that our educational system is not telling, like teaching people what that is. And so, redlining was the practice of lending institutions from the banks and the government deciding that some neighborhoods, particularly neighborhoods with certain groups of people, like Black people, that they couldn't get mortgages in order to buy property, which decreased generational wealth and had a whole bunch of repercussions.
Viv 42:02
I think this goes back to when I was speaking earlier about how everybody has to play a role, right. And I think, you know, people work with it, and property and real estate, they have a role in this. And they can really, they can really help and change the situation for these families affected by redlining. So I just wanted to tie that together.
Alexis 42:23
Yeah, but it's interesting how you're talking about, you know, community fundraising, and things like that, because that's a thing I think about where like that community banded together and helped alleviate that situation along with community organizing around legislation to force banks to disclose their lending practices.
Viv 42:40
Yeah, I There are so many amazing ideas like that floating around. I think there was something that happened in Maryland, where somebody, it was like a campaign to get people to donate, and it was essentially white people to donate to an uncomfortable level. And I think there's a Code Switch podcast on it. From NPR, right. Yes, yes. I don't know if y'all listen to it. But these ideas are groundbreaking, right? Because before we wouldn't even discuss how different groups we have different expectations of donation, and community building from each group. And I think it's, it's important to recognize every group’s different and then also work with them accordingly. There's just so many amazing ideas. This is why I have hope like this. I'm a middle schooler.
Linet 43:37
But going back to middle school, and this idea, I think you said you were like, is this a children's book? I am still a fan of Captain Planet. I still think we need everybody in on the fight. I think if, I think what we've found is, when we split up, right? When we put ourselves into silos, when we say that we can't work together, whether it's, you know, media telling us, you know, lies that like, you know, Black and Asian American communities have never worked together before and that it's unprecedented for that, you know, queer, queer liberation, queer rights, fights have nothing to do with people of color. Like all of that is bullshit, right? Like it's bullshit we are together, we live together we breathe together. And the things that we we make in wins in one area, whether it's racial or sexual or gender, age or ability, or it’s a sector like nonprofit, you know, philanthropy, for-profit, government policy sector does impact the other and I think the more we can share, the more we can sort of be more unified in sharing our approaches and our wins and our difficulties. and banding together, I really do think that there's a chance right, I think, I think we're all here because we're hopeful people. Right? I don't think we would have started Unconscious Bias Project without that.
Alexis 45:14
Is there anything that we can do as UBP? As listeners, to help with philanthropy? Even if we don't have funds? Even if we don't personally have money to give? Like is, are there ways that we can apply pressure? Are there ways that we can? What are your thoughts there?
Viv 45:31
I have so many thoughts, Alexis, I thought, I will say one of my favorite activists and friends. Their name is Rohan Zhou-Lee. And they really talk about, you know, finding your talent, and talents that give you joy, and then applying it to a problem that you feel something towards, and then finding joy in that. And I think that's really important where for everyone to find meaning in the work that they do, find their talent, or the things that they like to do, try to merge those two, because that will give you the stamina, that will give you the motivation, and just the joy to continue making a great difference. So that's like my one big advice. But I think you know, there's so many things you can do, obviously, reading, educating, joining these podcasts and these conversations, because you always learn something new. And if you don't learn something new, you have something to question. I think there's always something that you can do. I think, honestly, I've been having this conversation with people like do you want to create a safe space? Or where you are? Or do you want to build another one? And I think everybody can do a lot where they're sitting? If they can't, they can move on and build something new? Yes, I do think everybody can build a lot and do a lot from where they're sitting. Even if they don't have the money in the time. They can do a lot by having conversations, educating people even just saying a couple of things at work, you know, your work is a structure that you can question, the things that you do daily, you can use those things to bring positivity to somebody else. So I think everybody can do a lot from where they're sitting. And I think that as long as we find joy in what we do, we can do do it for a long time.
Linet 47:34
So it's a great jumping point for us to jump to our shout-outs. What are you working on? Tell us a little more about maybe about "What Gives?" next season that's coming up? Or do you want to give a shout-out to somebody or a group? We just named Rohan, who, if y'all don't know about Rohan, definitely check them out. They're the founder of the Black, Asian, and Blasian March, just search Blasian March anywhere and you'll see all the awesome work they're doing. But yeah, if there's somebody you want to give a shout-out to, maybe what you're working on, what folks can look forward to, go ahead and let everybody know.
Viv 48:17
I think there's a ton of things that people can be doing right now for what's going on in Afghanistan. And I think I'm such a current-events-driven person. So when something's happening, my all focuses on that, which is not good, because there are, you know, perpetual issues. I shouldn't be helping, if people haven't done anything yet, they should really look into the things that are happening over there right now. How the US has been playing a part and then figure out how they want to contribute there. In terms of what we're working on right now. "What Gives?" podcast. We're working on putting together a new season, I would urge everyone to give us a follow at the "What Gives?" project on Instagram, and on Facebook. And then our website is www.whatgivesproject.com. And you can always reach out to me and if anybody you know has an organization or cause that they're working on, they can I would love to amplify your work, link you with other awesome people, and work with you on the things that you're doing. So that is my plug.
Linet 49:36
Thank you, Viv. It was really great to have you on the show. And I know we planned some things that we're going to talk about and I love where we went to. So thank you for being on here with us.
Viv 49:48
Yeah, I hope we tied it all together. That's like, “wait, where's this going?” But I think we did. I think we did. So much. I love y'all.
Seth 50:03
Thanks for listening. You can find more information and donate at unconsciousbiasproject.org. Dr. Linet Mara, she/her, and Alexis Krohn, she/her, are your hosts. Seth Boeckman, he/they, is your editor. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and follow us. We can be found on Facebook at Unconscious Bias Project, Twitter at UBP_stem, LinkedIn, Instagram, or join our mailing list. UBP is a fiscally sponsored project of the Social Good Fund, a tax-deductible 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. If you wish to sponsor us, please contact us in the contact us tab at unconsciousbiasproject.org