Published on: May 28, 2022

Alexis and Linet were so excited to talk to Tony for this episode of the podcast! Tony is the executive director of the American Young Leader Exchange, a nonprofit organization that seeks to develop young leaders through domestic cultural exchange. He is also a West Point graduate and veteran of the Iraq War, where he learned many lessons about leadership. Tony later earned an MBA at Columbia Business School, he is also involved in safety and care at Burning Man as a Black Rock Ranger. 

Listen in as Tony, Alexis, and Linet talk about his leadership experiences and views of leadership as being inherently tied with compassion, empathy, and diversity. 

Resources from this episode:

AYLX
Know a high schooler that could benefit from ALYX leadership exchange? Send them the AYLX Application!
Trang Cao, PhD 
Josh Goldbard - Podcast interview with Tony & Josh

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Transcript

Linet  00:01

Hey, everybody. This is a really interesting and thoughtful podcast that we have with you. We interviewed Tony Nguyen. We learned about AYLX and I think we kind of deep and really thoughtful about leadership. What does leadership mean? Can you even teach leadership? What does it look like? And what does it look like in different contexts and how critical diversity and equipping leaders with winning diverse teams, how do you even do that? We'll talk about all that and a little bit about Burning Man. This is a real treat. I hope you enjoy it. 

Hi everyone! ¡Hola a todes! Linet here  (and Alexis) your co-hosts both she/her bringing you impactful stories and interviews from our communities to you and explore how we can support each other.

The Unconscious Bias Project is based in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, on unceded ancestral homeland belonging to the Ramaytush Ohlone and Muwekma Ohlone peoples, some of whom speak the language Chocheño. We encourage you to learn more about the Ohlone people on our website in the podcast links. 

Alexis  01:27

So welcome everyone, and especially to our guests today, Tony Nguyen! Tony is the executive director of the American Young Leader Exchange, a nonprofit organization that seeks to develop young leaders through domestic cultural exchange. Tony is a West Point graduate and veteran of the Iraq War, where he learned many lessons about leadership. He later earned an MBA at Columbia Business School, and is also involved in safety and care at Burning Man as a Black Rock Ranger. We are so proud to welcome him today as a guest on the podcast. Welcome, Tony!

Tony  02:05

How are y'all? Howdy.

Alexis  02:07

So, Tony with that? What is AYLX - what is the American young leader exchange?

Linet  02:15

And you pronounce it? “A-Licks?”

Tony  02:17

I've been pronouncing it “A-Licks,” but I don't correct people. And I'll just let language take its natural course and see what it settles on. AYLX, the American Young Leader Exchange, is a, basically you take the concept of the well-known international student exchange where high schoolers spend a semester or summer abroad, and we bring it home domestically. So American students spend a summer or a semester living with another American family from a culturally different region of America. Our intent is this: is how you develop a cross-cultural leader, one who is immersed in a different type of American culture, understands that language, and gets to understand what America's about beyond are just little pockets of civilization that we live in. On top of that, the program is free. We pay for transportation, we pay for a one-on-one coach for that student. And also we provide social-emotional workshops before they go, and classes such as “Seven Forms of Respect,” “Active Listening,” and “Empathy.” 

Alexis  03:29

So are you focusing on anything in particular, for instance, trying to get city kids out to rural areas or rural out to city? Is there any specific exchange that you're focusing on? Or is it really all of them equally?

Tony  03:43

That's a great question. In terms of geography, there is no geographic focus. What we do is that when we make a recommendation to match a family with a student, we look at five factors. First one being social, economic, very complex, and nuanced. The other one's ethnic, religious, type of community they're from that's urban, rural, suburban form. And lastly, number five is the cultural region of America depends on which sociologists you use you speak to. The lines are different. But let's say for example, the West Coast is very different from New Orleans, which is very different from Maine, so those are the general guidelines, was five factors that we looked into.

Linet  04:33

I'm curious about, how do families learn about this program? Are you in every high school, or how do most people come across AYLX and what would I be like? Okay, I know exactly what I'm going to get out of going through AYLX that prepare me for…

Tony  04:53

To answer your questions, we have first more details at our website aylx.org. There, you'll learn all the details of the program as well as the applicant, the online application process is there as well. For the second one, what do students get out of this? So let me - my alma mater, West Point, they have an application process just like any other college institution, one thing that they ask for in the essays, acknowledging and recognizing the fact that was when leaders will have to lead diverse teams, they ask the student to explain how they will be good at leading diverse teams, right, the United States Military Academy at West Point acknowledges and understands that leaders need to be able to lead diverse teams, and AYLX will enable students to do that to get a leg up and start their leadership journey. Part of being leaders is not only the competence of what you can do, the techniques and methods of management, but also empathy and understanding someone different. And the way you learn that is face to face, and building actual relationships and friendships.

Linet  06:13

As we all know on this podcast, our world is continuing to reach out further than we've ever had reach, further internally than we've ever had, I think a lot of you, much like in any country, you see other countries as, okay, there's just one kind of person, right? So if you're from Colombia, you think of Americans, you're like, “Okay, this is one kind of person, they're, I don't know, a white guy with blue eyes, really tall and very loud, and entitled, or whatever. And so it's easy to have these stereotypes of different countries, different people, different regions, even within a country as some kind of monolith. And I see part of the beauty of breaking down those expectations of what somebody else is or looks like or behaves like or what their interests are. Because you get to meet people and reach them personally, and as we gather, as we become more diverse as we, make more inclusive and more equitable workplaces and, and classrooms and teams. I think that leadership is super, super important. And I'm actually curious, you've kicked off with, this is sort of that culture exchange. But looking domestically, how did you get to that concept of, actually, we have so much diversity within the United States that, just, going to, from, I don't know, California, San Francisco, to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, for example, is a difference. There is a difference, though, there's a different culture, there's a different expectation, there's a different, even the colloquialisms are different, social expectations are different. There's a lot of differences there. How did you get to, I need to build a mix. And my focus is going to be this domestic exchange, and specifically for people in high school, how did that concept come about?

Tony  08:27

Back in 2016, a lot of my friends were not happy with the election results. And some were, I have friends from, I think, because of my, my experiences in the military, from a wide swath of types of Americans. And they were seeing very different things within social media, my Facebook, and both sides wanted to get the word out, and they started posting, and they started discussions amongst people who think like them. And they thought that, okay, if you post something that would actually, that would reach the people who think differently than you. That’s when I realized that everyone's kind of screaming into an echo chamber. It feels good to do so, however, you're just going to get feedback from people, and they're going to reaffirm your beliefs. This happens regardless of your affiliations or what you believe it just happens. We've seen Francis Haugen testify in front of Congress, basically reaffirming that social media just solidifies our echo chambers. On top of that, our echo chambers are also geographic, as well, in addition to digital, where we move to places and live with people who think similar, similar to us. And so now, understanding that people are in their digital silos and their geographic silos, and their professional silos you hang around people you work with more likely than a young person, how can people actually break out of those silos and meet someone different than them, not only meet, but get to know them, befriend them and build a relationship with someone different, you have to physically move them. All these efforts to expose us digitally to someone different. That's a poor substitute for, for actually meeting people and being immersed in their environments. And so with the physical, imagine a claw, you have to pluck them up and move them to a different location and immerse them in there. And then you have to give them the tools to communicate and thrive in those in those situations. I don't see another way around it to actually better connect Americans. 

Alexis  10:49

We do talk a lot at UBP about, ways that you can reduce your biases, and one of those is by altering your media diet, and that that can change how you see, folks. But yeah, getting to actually know people in person seems like such a crucial step to being able to imagine them complexly. 

Tony  11:08

Yeah, it's a form of exposure therapy.

Linet  11:15

But one of the pieces I was hoping to learn from is why is high school a good time to do something like this versus I don't know, a college kid, or somebody who's fresh out of college, or maybe even a middle schooler? What's the - iis there a sweet spot with it being high school?

Tony  11:37

Most definitely is a sweet spot, several factors: One is that, at the college level, there are several programs that are similar to this, where college students exchanged from one college to another. Also, high schoolers are at a unique stage in life where they're becoming adults. And during that process, you have rapid growth, you have rapid sense of self-discovery. And so as a high schooler, you're formulating your own ideas, and this is a good time for you to expand your perspectives and get more if you were in the AI business. Really expand that training set. High schoolers live with their families. And there is a wealth of experience just being embedded with a different family and college you have, you're embedded with your, in a dorm and such, but being in a family, seeing the discussions being part of those discussions at the dinner table, seeing what they care about, looking, understanding what they care about in terms of their the bills that they pay, the type of food they eat, how do they cook it? How do they shop for it? What are their daily concerns about the future of their children and future, their family future of their city and state, you're intimately immersed as a high schooler in American family that you don't really get in college?

Alexis  13:07

That's really cool. Yeah, you would get not just a single interpersonal experience, but a wealth of them all at once a really, I mean, as you say, right, an immersive experience. So as students are getting ready to do this cultural exchange, and are, getting ready to go from a city to rural or rural to a city? And maybe their banal challenges such as, “how do I get around public versus a car, to larger interpersonal expectations?” How do you guide these youth through this experience? How do you prepare them and how do you guide them through potential challenges?

Tony  13:54

For students that qualify, we’ll award a $1,000 stipend for them to spend throughout the semester of the summer. And the second layer of support is that they have a coach, and coach is slightly more than just a coach, who’s there to support them in their discovery, but also serves as another layer of support to under to for the student to share what their concerns are and report back to AYLX, for us to intervene in case something they need support, whether it's interacting with the school, or interacting with the family. Our programs were very intimate with both the students as well as the families and the schools. AYLX started about a year ago in the heart of the pandemic. And our pilot program is this summer, which were pushed pushing hard to exchange six students with six families. And so their stories for impact

Linet  15:00

Before the podcast, we kind of shared a little bit about our experiences traveling or experiences in different countries and cultures and sort of how rich and interesting and fun it is to, to learn about even another person or how to connect to people or the shared humanity, even if you're in a different part of the world or the bonding under duress, all of these different factors that we've had experiences with, as adults, you mentioned being at West Point. You mentioned being in Iraq, what do you think would have been the impact on Tony, the teenager, in high school had you done an exchange like this?

Tony  15:58

It's funny, I often think about this, my time at West Point, and in the army and deployed, I was exposed to all sorts of things, here's a different culture, here's the military culture, here's the Iraqi culture. Here are Iraqi people, here are military folks from different parts of America, I got the exposure first, without many of the tools, the social-emotional tools that I would prefer to have to process them. And that's the experience for many, every military person, you're exposed to all this diversity, but you're not exactly given the tools to how to work with that. And so it wasn't until I learned those tools, after getting out of the Army, that I was able to reflect on those and also focus on maintaining those relationships, and it built when I was in the army. Now, with AYLX, you get the tools, first you start that process earlier in your life, had I had AYLX, it would have enabled me to be a better leader, but also enabled me to maintain and strengthen those friendships that I built throughout my experiences. Because you get the tools first. And I imagine every high schooler getting those tools earlier in life, starting that process, starting that growth, eyes, I can see doesn't a hockey stick of personal leadership growth in, in America's youth, if you get those two tools and exposure sooner. 

Linet  17:35

I'm curious about these tools. Because I also, folks that know me personally, and folks that have been longtime listeners might know, I grew up around the world, I'm from Bogota, Colombia. I moved to Nigeria and France and Venezuela, in Texas, which is very culturally different from any other place I've ever been in the US. And I've lived in San Francisco at this point. I've also lived in New Mexico, and that's closest, and I'm curious about, what are the social-emotional tools that maybe I already have that I don't know, or that maybe I could be, learning and, and processing, as you said, to help process past experiences, or look forward to future experiences? And I would love if you could answer this social-emotional tools question with how maybe you apply that at Burning Man, for Black Rock City, because I think sometimes people think of leadership skills are something that you only use when you're, I don't know, a CEO, or you're managing a team or you're running a platoon or that (I have no, zero army language other than what was seen on TV). But yeah, how does that look like in Black Rock City, what does that look like at Burning Man?

Tony  18:54

So I think I'll start with explaining the tools a little bit better. And so, for the tools, we partnered with a leadership consultancy firm called Curiosity, based their focus, before working with us is teaching these social-emotional tools to high-level executives, and management. And so we work with them to build a custom curriculum for our teens, we made three classes. One is exploring assumptions to build empathy. The next class is asking better questions. And the third class, which I suggest, I alluded to before, is the seven forms of respect. And I'll teach, myself, teach American Nations, which is basically the cultural sub-regions of America and how they came to be and what that actually means in today's terms. That's a curriculum. How does that empathy work? How do those tools play out in places like Black Rock City, where you have yes and privacy, but also you have folks who aren't going through various things. Black Rock City is a place where you explore your boundaries, sometimes have unexpected results. But one thing we teach the teens is okay, asking better questions. What is that? And what exactly does this mean? It means first understanding, how do I ask questions? How do I explore? What's my curiosity? How does it play out? And also, there's a lot of active listening within this course. So if you ask a question, shut up a bit, and let the person talk about themselves. And then because you're actively listening, the other person feels heard. Because they are heard. You can't really fake empathy. There's a running joke that, like I say, if you can fake empathy, you've made it. When someone feels heard, then regardless of whether or not you agree with each other, you have a foundation to build a relationship, they're just hearing each other, not trying to convince one person. One thing or another, just hearing them, and understanding where their concerns really come from. Because everyone has that, there's two layers of communication is, one is what I want - what I say I want, and what I actually feel. Great example, the orange problem, right? Two people who want the  orange, they say I want this orange, but they don't really communicate what they actually need, which is one person needs the peel. And the other person needs the juice. And so they actually could share this orange in both address their needs. 

Linet  21:53

Well, I've actually never heard of that model or that question? Or, the situation, the orange problem? That's really cool. I, I think that's, that's, uh, I never really, I guess considered. I mean, I've obviously, we, in this work, and, helping people connect with each other, considering diversity and inclusion, we're hoping people do, that they listen to each other, they actually validate somebody's experience just by listening, or just by, even repeating back, or, “I heard you say, blah, blah, blah.” But the layers that you bring there of, “what do you actually want? And then what are you feeling?” I think sometimes we forget that. When you're just, any conversation, “what do you want for breakfast?” What I actually want is, I need to know if you have a preference, so that I can get this breakfast on the table, because I need to be ready for work or whatever, there's actually - it's not just, “what would you like, out of all the things in the world for breakfast?” That's not my actual question, right? And maybe what I'm feeling is, “I'm feeling stressed out, because we don't have breakfast on the table. Can you help me solve this issue?” Right? And I'm thinking of my kid, right, who's sometimes like, “I don't know, you choose, mom.” And okay, “if I bring you, if I bring you toast, then you're gonna be upset, because there wasn't an egg on it.” And then it's going to take us 10 times longer to have breakfast. But, sort of communicating some of these pieces can be really key. And I've done I did this what's called a Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute. It's, um, they were a nonprofit. Now they turn into a B Corp, part of the has turned to B Corp. But anyways, the point is, is that they're all about applying mindfulness skills with a leadership lens. And one of the exercises that they have you do are different levels of listening, mindful listening, active listening, and different kinds of ways that you can listen, you either just listen and shut up. You listen and recap what you heard, the content for you listen, and you recap what you heard somebody was feeling as they were telling you the story could only imagine the layers in the orange story of what could be there. That's really interesting. So not all of our listeners might know what Black Rock City is or what is Burning Man and what kind of context you're talking about, like diversity and different things going on and people processing different things. Put both of y'all on the spot. How would you describe Burning Man to some, somebody that's never been?

Tony  25:10

Um, I would say that it is life concentrated. Where kind of like, the movies, where you take the movies are a slice of life with all the boring parts taken out. And so Burning Man is the same thing, let's have one incredible experience after another after another after another. When you do that in a span of a week, it takes a toll. And it challenges you. And so you can have wild swings of emotion, and intellectual processing, personal processing and growth all within a week. So yeah, take a year's worth of your life and just take out all the boring parts for Burning Man.

Alexis  25:57

I often say it just kind of amplifies everything to 10.

Linet  26:02

I would add for those that haven't seen pictures or anything, this is all in the context of a desert. And Black Rock City is basically a one-week, self-sufficient unit that people take months to set up. And to give you the infrastructure, that environment, so then people can do wonderful art or create interesting projects or experiences. So that everybody, and it has it has multiple different layers of experience. And I bring up and I'm focusing on Black Rock City and on Burning Man. Because I feel that one of the things that that we forget in leadership or even as adults now looking back to kids, there's all of this of, high school kids or young adults, I should say, there are all of these different kinds of layers of experience in areas where you can be a leader, right? Like I said, it's not just, are you leading a team? Are you leading a platoon are you, designing your program, but leadership can be, I see a camp across the way at Burning Man or Black Rock City. And I noticed that they're struggling with their generator, leadership can be walking over and say, “Hey, friend, what's going on? I see that you're, might have trouble with a generator. Can I help?”

Tony  27:35

Yeah, I love that example, too, because, because of two things. One is that you're not leading people in a formal power structure, you're leading peers, you took initiative, the leader is normally the one who takes initiative, is the first one to do something. And secondly, you are the bridge, you are the cause you are the bridge between your two camps, that's leadership, that's being a liaison, that camp could be totally different, they can be from a different city, they can be from a different state, and they could be there to experience or a country even. And they could be there to experience a Burning Man in a way that you do not. And so you being crossing that bridge going over them and having a foot in either world with you just two camps next to each other. That is leadership.

Alexis  28:36

Yeah, we definitely talk a lot about both formal and informal leadership and just how much there is there in terms of possibilities that people can be leaders even when they don't know that they are.

Tony  28:49

One of my favorite leaders when I was a young lieutenant was a major Moore, now Colonel Moore. And he's, when I first joined his unit, I was going through a rough time, I just been relieved of my platoon in another unit and got traded over so I was feeling a bit down. And he looked at my paperwork and chatted me chatting with me a bit. He saw something in me that I didn't see at the time because I was feeling really down like a failure. And he said, “Tony, what I see looking at your history on paper and seeing how you are, you're fine.” And then he said, “When you get your next platoon, when in doubt, lead.” That statement is really, really simple.” 

Alexis  29:38

And that's really fantastic. All right. I want to ask you more about leadership but for just a moment, we are actually going to take it to a break.

Seth  29:52

Hi, everyone, this is Seth and I am one of the audio editors and volunteers here at UBP. The Unconscious Bias Project brings creative, accessible, evidence-based solutions for unintentional bias to academic, technological, governmental organizations, and beyond. We sustain a welcoming home for inquisitive and creative minds and encourage a growth mindset. Working by the model of “0% Guilt, 100% Empowerment.” Please subscribe or follow our Facebook and Instagram for the latest in events and how you can learn more and be involved. Also, take a look and check out our guest's website and learn more. Look for that information in the description section of your podcast or on our website.

Alexis  30:48

Right before the break, we were just talking with Tony about leadership. And I think everyone kind of has a nebulous idea of what leadership is we all, have interacted with leaders, we have probably all displayed leadership to some degree. But what is leadership? It can be one of those abstracts, it's hard to pin down what it actually is. So can you tell us what even is leadership? And why is exchange and diversity important to leadership?

Tony  31:21

Yeah, when I first became a young lieutenant, the Army has a definition of leadership, this is not verbatim, but leadership is motivating, guiding, organizing a group of people toward a singular mission goal, and also taking care of them. They added that last part later. And unlike - that's a good definition to me, when it comes to what AYLX brings, are the empathy that we teach, the connectedness with the people who are different than you, that runs all throughout that statement, motivating, organizing, leading, providing guidance, you're better able to do and all that when you understand your team, whether it's formal or informal. And when your team sees that you understand that they're more willing to work with you, and to work harder for you. Because you care, you understand where they're coming from you understand their concerns. You're not just motivated by hitting the deliverables, but also caring about their work well-being. They say, you can manage up or you can manage down, you can manage both.

Linet  32:29

Just last night, I was talking to a friend about leadership, she's preparing for a job interview. And she's worried, she's feeling anxious, excited about this job posting. And it's a position of leadership. And so she was worrying about, “what if they ask me ‘what is leadership?’ I gotta be really good with the terminology.” And she sent me an article from indeed.com on leadership, and I was like, “no, no, leadership, you've experienced it, you've been a leader. They care about what leadership is to you, not, they're hiring you, and how you would lead, not indeed.com. They're not, they're not looking for the textbook, the textbook is great, leave that to the writers leave that to, people that research leadership, but what is leadership for you? What, what makes you think, ‘Yeah, that's a leader I want to follow.’”

Tony  33:27

One of the things that I recently learned that is it's just brings me confidence in the future of where the army wants to go. So that I recently had a little mini-virtual reunion with some of my classmates from West Point. And some of them as most of us are out of the Army, and some of us are still working. One of us who's still in is Pete Erickson. Now Lieutenant Colonel Pete Erickson, and my class, which is the class of 2004. It's about, our cohort is right now about to become battalion commanders, battalion commanders is something that's it's pretty prestigious. There's only X number of battalions in the army. Battalion is a group of soldiers that ranges in size from anywhere from 300 to 800. Depends on what job you do in the army. And so Pete Erickson is about to become battalion commander of an infantry unit. And if you're going to, about 600,000 infantry, they go to a school to prepare them for this command. I forgot the name of the school. And so when he was in the school, he was visited by the Undersecretary of the Army and Undersecretary of the Army said, “Look, we go by the four C's of leadership, and we look at commitment, competence, compassion and care.” And he held up his fingers and he pointed to one of the young lieutenant colonel's and said, “We know that you're committed and have competence. You wouldn't be here if you did not. However, the Army has done a really not great job at teaching and promoting the compassion, care.” Just made me feel great, because normally, one of the worst types of leaders you can run into, is that one who just cares about managing up. Did you accomplish the mission? Did you meet these numbers? Did you meet this objective of X number of soldiers passed this particular test? You have a readiness rating of 93%, which is great. But how many people did you, how many of your soldiers did you crush along the way? Did you push them out of the army when they didn't need to be? Did you make sure that that soldier’s family felt supported while that soldier had to go to a training exercise for two weeks, which is, time away from the family is stressful. And so if that soldier did not go to the training exercise, while you are then, you had one of the soldiers out there to accomplish your mission, same time did they feel supported? So it was great to hear that now the Undersecretary of the Army is saying same that, “okay. We care about all these things, but because we've neglected compassion and care, that's hurt our long-term goals. Leadership is a way to meet your goals and care for your people.”

Alexis  36:26

Do you have any particular experiences from your time in the military that you want to tell us about that highlight how compassion and care can be used to bring a team together?

Tony  36:37

There's this one time when I first arrived in Baghdad in 2007. And if you remember, the Iraq war in 2007- 008, that was the time of the Surge where the President, President Bush, sent in extra units into Iraq in order to alleviate what is fundamentally a civil war at that point between the Shia and the Sunni. I was on patrol in a neighborhood of Baghdad, southern Baghdad, it was what they say “hot” there, a lot of fighting between the two factions in that neighborhood. And I had chai with a local leader - I wouldn't call him an imam per se, but he could have been, and he's older gentleman. We sat down in his home where while my platoon patrolled security outside, and there's various ways that I can approach this in. What I did instinctually was take off my helmet, take off my armor vest and my gear, put it next to me. I sat down remembering that “okay, in Iraqi culture you refer to their age in seniority.” So I made sure I did that, and as to look non-threatening as possible because I wanted to convey that “we are partners, I'm not here to dominate you, I'm not here to intimidate you. We're gonna here work together.” And throughout that conversation, I could feel him open up almost like a flower and sharing with me the things that he, I'm sure, did not share with the previous soldiers who patrol that area before me, the previous unit. And I can tell that some of my senior leadership who are in the room with me, they got it, they started sensing, “oh hey Lieutenant Nguyen, he cares about these people.” Them seeing me express empathy and treat the Iraqis as equals as humans runs counter to some to the perception of some soldiers, especially the younger ones, that “Iraqis are lesser, we're here to protect them” or maybe as children or - for me to show them firsthand that, no, that's definitely not how we treat them. And I think that that strengthened our our platoon that let everyone know, hey, Lieutenant Nguyen’s gonna put his safety on the line in order to treat these people equally, by taking off his helmet, by taking off his plated vest, by taking off his gear, where we’re a team with the Iraqis, the local Iraqis, and the US Army. 

Linet  39:43

Damn, that must’ve taken some serious guts. As you were describing this, I'm like, oh my gosh, I cannot imagine okay, I hear bullets whizzing by. I can imagine hearing the bullets fly by, embed themselves in a wall, I don't know. 20 feet away. and being like, “Okay, I'm going to take off my helmet,” hear somebody, maybe yelling in the background, “Alright, I'm gonna take off my vest,” knowing conflict that just happened yesterday or that morning, or that, it's gonna happen later and be like, “No, I'm gonna put my weapons over here. And just, I'm just going to put myself out there, that I'm just hearing the levels of both vulnerability, role modeling” and saying, “Okay.” I think other people could be familiar with it, the white savior mentality of, “I am here to help you because you cannot have agency, you don't have knowledge, you don't have strength, you don't have…” whatever it is, right? And being like, “Nope, that's just zero useful, right now, I'm going to, meet you as an equal and be vulnerable in a way that I can and be really respectful and really engage in,” that's really powerful, I can see that, applying in so many different contexts is that sort of what you teach, or what you were hoping aiming to teach kids, going through AYLX like how, that that piece of vulnerability and, and meeting each other as equals.

Tony  41:23

To teach is kind of a weird term to me, because we definitely, explicitly teach them these four classes before they go, we hope that they learn on their own these lessons with guidance from the coach, as they are exposed to these new situations as they're immersed in them. And it's a journey, I didn't arrive to that, at that point of the deployment, I was 20. I was 25, and still discovering what leadership meant to me. And so we hope to plant the seed, because they're their high schoolers, plant the seed and watch them grow into the type of leader that they want to be. what exactly that means to them. It's these lessons are unique to every person, because every exchange is unique. And every child that goes in into the exchange is unique, but they do share, every kid dish does share fundamental curiosity and respect for other cultures. If you didn't have that, you wouldn't be part of it. 

Linet  42:26

There's two different types of people, there's the “us versus them,” right, maybe you go on a trip, go to New Orleans, and you're like, “This food is different from what I'm used to, I can't find my,” I don't know, “arugula salad. I can't, this isn't what I expected.” Or, “Bourbon Street is supposed to be fancy,” or “why is it covered in piss at 4:00 in the morning?” Or “can I just order the things that I'm comfortable with?” Or “do the things that I'm comfortable with or had the experience that I expected.” And then there's the people that are, “Alright, I'm here to experience what's going on in New Orleans what's what is the magic of Bourbon Stree”t but the switch, the curiosity, they have to learn about the history, “I want to learn about, the statue here. I want to understand the cultural context of…” I love picking New Orleans because it has so much rich history, and, and painful history and joyous history, right? There's, it was the center for slave trade, it's also the center for goods and mercantile trade, there's a merging of a bunch of different cultures, whether intentionally or unintentionally. There's history of revolution, of rebellion. There's history, culturally with Spanish, French, many different African, especially West African cultures and countries, there's this evolution of different kinds of dialect. The music has so much diversity in it too, because of all of these contexts. And it's reflected in the people now, and in the foods, and there's a richness, there's something different there. And you can either approach it as “I'm here to experience, I'm here to learn, I'm here to connect” or you can approach it as “I'm here to receive the things that I am expecting” and I can only imagine that with AYLX are hoping to equip these high schoolers, these young adults because it really, they're about to venture on to figuring themselves out, like you said, they're at, about to work on themselves as leaders, they're about to experience life beyond what they grew up with their cocoons. And, we're hoping they come to it with that curiosity, like you were saying with that, I see you as an equal with that respect with that with compassion and caring with tools of, alright, I learned some things in the AYLX program. And now it's up to me to see how I can connect with it in the real life.

Tony  45:22

Any child, given the right support and experiences can grow, until later, that's fundamental, we're not, we're not fixed on the life path, it's easier to grow when you have a fundamental baseline, at an early age, of exposure to something unique and outside your comfort zone. Earlier, you get used to it, you foster that curiosity, because you're rewarded, you put in into environments that require you to explore versus environments that are that you're comfortable with, your hometown, your home school, your actual house, you can help to be changed when you go through an experience like this.

Alexis  46:04

I can't wait to hear the stories because even as an adult, and even with my limited experiences, I have found that when I drove across the country, and just got to, literally, even just visit, it’s really good, for my heart and my empathy. I felt like to be there, driving between San Francisco and Oregon to see a friend, I've been getting more and more comfortable with the parts of California that I think a lot of my friends don't even know exist, just from having friendly interactions at gas stations, things like that. And to be somewhere for - how long are the exchanges? 

Tony  46:53

In the summer, they are three weeks, either simultaneous or back-to-back. And during the semesters, semester-long. And also simultaneous or back to back. 

Alexis  47:05

Yeah, that's incredible. And so yeah, I can't even imagine how transformative three weeks would be to be a place and really experienced and really experienced the people there from the inside. When you've got people who can show you what it looks like. 

We are at the shout-outs section of our podcast, where we give people the opportunity to amplify to thank to draw attention to people, any other projects are working on. What other projects do you have? Is there anybody you want to thank, any other voices you want to amplify?

Tony  47:39

Yeah, so I'd like to thank Trang Cao, she's my director of curriculum. She's been with me pretty much from the beginning. I’d like to thank Josh Goldbard, who gave me the final push through this. It's been surreal to have so many people around you say, y”eah, what you're doing is great. Let me invest in it, invest my time and resources to help.” You go “really? Okay. Thank you.” It's kind of like that last scene in Infinity War when Captain America calls for backup, everyone shows up. Yeah, Mom, you got you get a second one. Dad.

Alexis  48:19

Thank you so much for being here with us today, Tony. This has been absolutely great. We were really looking forward to it. And we're really glad we got this opportunity to talk to you.

Tony  48:28

As well it's been my pleasure. Thanks so much, Tony.

Seth  48:36

Thanks for listening. You can find more information and donate at unconsciousbiasproject.org. Dr. Linet Mera, she/her, and Alexis Krohn, she/her, are your hosts. Seth Boeckman, he/they, is your editor. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and follow us. We can be found on Facebook at Unconscious Bias Project, Twitter at UBP_stem, LinkedIn, Instagram, or join our mailing list. UBP is a fiscally sponsored project of the Social Good Fund, a tax-deductible 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. If you wish to sponsor us, please contact us in the contact us tab at unconsciousbiasproject.org.