Episode 22 - Shana Abraham - RISE for Action
Published on: April 5, 2022
Shana Abraham
Linet and Alexis were so excited to talk to Shana Abraham for this episode of the podcast. She’s a global health enthusiast, Duke alumna, and a passionate advocate for women and girl’s rights. She wrote “RISE” as a toolkit for young women to break down barriers to their success, and founded RISE Women, an online platform to highlight women change-makers while also providing actionable strategies and opportunities to elevate women around the world.
Listen in as Shana, Linet, and Alexis talk about the success of women, and how helping women rise can help everybody.
Resources from this episode:
Shana Abraham - website
Instagram: @shana.abraham & @risewomenco
Shana on LinkedIn
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Transcript
Linet 00:00
Hey everybody, we have a gem of a podcast in store for you listen on for how to uplift women everywhere how to support young women, how to support yourself. We talked to Shana Abraham and really heard about her life story of her path through creating a community, a toolkit, a book, really a way of life and a whole career for herself out of just wanting to find the resources for herself as a young woman, looking to pursue her passions and really making the most out of life so I know you will very much enjoy this as much as we did recording
Linet 00:54
Hi everyone! ¡Hola a todes! This is Linet and, Alexis, your co-hosts, both she/her, bringing you impactful stories and interviews from our communities. We have our favorite people share their experiences, viewpoints and the topics that matter most to them so we can all support each other.
Alexis 01:13
And before we kick off today's episode, I’d like to tell everyone to go and learn more about the Ohlone people and the current Shellmound protests to support their life, heritage, and rights. Unconscious Bias Project is based in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, which is unceded ancestral homeland belonging to the Ramaytush Ohlone and Muwekma Ohlone peoples. Support our work by supporting them too.
Linet 01:39
And please welcome our fabulous guests, Shana Abraham, pronouns she/hers. is a global health enthusiast, Duke alumna, and is a passionate advocate for women and girls’ rights. She wrote Rise, the book, as a toolkit for young women to break down barriers to their success, and founded Rise Women (@risewomenco), an online platform to highlight women changemakers while also providing actionable strategies and opportunities to elevate women around the world. Welcome.
Shana 02:13
Thank you so much. That was a great introduction.
Linet 02:16
So please tell our listeners, what is Rise, exactly?
Shana 02:21
Yeah, well, you know, Rise is something that, I almost call it a movement rather than just like one thing, because that's what it was meant to do. So it initially started off from my book, like you mentioned. So Rise is the book that I wrote and published in 2020. And its tagline is “how empowering women elevates us all.” And Rise was meant to be kind of a call to action for people that are previously not mobilized and supporting women's empowerment. And it mainly came from the fact that in the community that I grew up in, which as the child of Indian immigrants was like a mix of an Indian community, and also my typical like American community in like the suburb of Chicago that I was raised in, I felt that people didn't really know or speak on, just like the positionality of women in different societies and the different barriers to their success. And so I really wanted to create a book that not only broke down exactly why women's empowerment was important, but also provide strategies for young women who, like me, were looking for that kind of guidance, but also to help people around them also figure out how can they can support women and why it's not just a women's issue. And it's not just beneficial to women, but rather everyone. That's kind of the wit, it started off as a book and almost like a, you know, a love letter to my younger self. And then it turned into a whole kind of plan of action. And now it's like a whole organization. And I feel like it became recognizable in its own way because people tended to resonate with it more than I expected.
Linet 03:53
That's awesome. So it's really a book for both women and people that are looking to support the women in their lives, right? Yes, absolutely.
Shana 04:00
I feel like there is a lot of people that obviously it was written with the primary audience being young women, the people that have actually read it that I've talked to you about it have been like men, people that are like parents, siblings, even like friends of women, like across the world, and they just even just getting a young woman's perspective on these things was really eye opening for them.
Alexis 04:23
I love everything that you just said about what Rise is and how it is more of a movement, and even just a book. So how did you go about creating Rise?
Shana 04:36
Yeah, so what Rise really was, a kind of, I don't put it it, was a start to a question that I had, which was “how do I get my dream job of supporting women into living lives where they're free to make their own choices where they have the sense of security and safety they deserve and have the tools with them to thrive and not just survive?” And so in that I realized that one of the main things that I was missing was literature that not only taught me as a young woman how to support myself, but also mentioned other women's stories, and not just the women that we see, and like, you know, huge blasted media that's like international renowned, but what about like the local women that are around us that just never get recognition for the hard work that they do for like decades, or the young women that are creating change amidst all the odds that are like right next to us. And so what I really wanted to do, and like the kind of mantra that came to mind with the mentor that was helping me with this book was the idea of like, it's not just a Malala, that is making change, even though I love her love her to death. But you know, everyone is like Malala, in the sense that everyone is creating change, everyone has things they're passionate about, and they work so hard, and really face all these different barriers and continue moving, even in the face of adversity. And so I really wanted to pull from not just the mainstream media for the women activists and changemakers that I wanted to learn their stories from, but rather find more local women across the world. So that it was a diverse range of women of issues of advocacy that was being worked on. And it went from, you know, women that were at the top levels in the C suite of, you know, corporate America to a young woman in rural Pakistan that was fighting for her education. And so I think that was what was really cool was that I got to learn so many different stories and realize that, you know, with Rise, it's not just a story that in our experiences that divide us, but rather there's similarities amongst all of our experiences that we can connect with. And so I went about just researching dozens and dozens of different activists, cold emailing and DMing. And trying to get people to talk to me, and luckily, a bunch of them responded, and they wanted to share their stories with me. And so I got to interview them, get to know them, learn about their journeys into doing the advocacy work that they do, or the life that they live now. And I just love their stories by taking the common lessons and themes that they offered me. And then rice kind of just naturally came out of that.
Alexis 07:08
Out of curiosity, were there any that were like? I mean, I know that like as a teacher, I don't have favorite kids. Right? I don't I don't have favorite students never did. But like, hypothetically, if you hypothetically, if you had a favorite interview, among all the amazing interviews, like if you had a particularly surprising interview, like what was that? And what was that? Like?
Shana 07:31
i It's so funny, you asked this question, because this question I get all the time. And I'm gonna cheat by giving the answer that always comes to mind, which is basically it was kind of like the most unexpected interview that I had. And so it was when I was interviewing a climate justice advocate named Litea, in Fiji. And so the time difference between us in Fiji is very large, as you can imagine, I remember I called her, like DM her on LinkedIn or something. And she responded, and she was like, “okay, cool. Like, I'll do this call.” And I was supposed to wake up at like, 5am for this call, and to do this interview. And so I remember I woke up that morning, I was like, “Man, I'm so tired. Like, I've never talked to this girl before I was like, I'm just gonna ask her like my three questions or five questions, write down her answers. And then like, you know, be like, say thank you for your time knock out again, like within like 30 minutes.” But the second Litea came in on the call. And it was like a zoom call, we just clicked so instantly, and it was like, almost like a shot of energy, just like ran through your body. And I was like, wide awake within one minute. Because the second she came in her energy was so warm, we started talking, and we just kept just like going on tangents and connecting on things that like, each of us brought up about our own personal lives, but her advocacy, but the things she went through, and we ended up talking for almost two hours, like literally until she, like, quite literally, like had to go to sleep because it was so late there. I don't remember coming out of that experience. And it was just one of those things like it was like a certain like serendipity, right, like the idea of like, it was just like so unexpected, but to find such a good friend and a stranger and not only just, in the sense like to just warm and welcoming, but rather we had so much in common even though we had nothing to go off of. Initially, it was just really inspiring. And it set a great tone for the rest of my interviews and I think she was the first interview I ever did.
Linet 09:18
That's such a nice story. I love that that feeling of when you meet somebody for the first time. And then you feel like you've known them in their previous life or you could have been best friends from childhood or something like that. I love those like instant synergies.
Shana 09:35
Absolutely. Litea and I always we talked about it at the end of it and we're like, “man, like if only we live like 10 timezones closer we're like, if we had been near each other, I feel like we would have been best friends from the start.” So it's really just the time and distance keeping us apart. wishing her well always.
Linet 09:48
Do you keep up with her?
Shana 09:53
So, you know, I've wished that I kept up more with the different activists that I've interviewed. There was just so many so we still like are friendly and we definitely like to like some check in more with me than others, I think it's probably just our time difference. And she's not as active on social media, some of the other ones, but you're in there she like, oh, like comment on my LinkedIn posts, or we'll like message each other here and there. She's still very, very sweet.
Linet 10:16
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, hopefully, once uh, I feel like I've said this every, every week for how many years now I hopefully the pandemic calms down a bit. And I don't know, maybe you could have a Rise conference or something, an international conference and sort of country hop for your conference. But I wanted to point out something to highlight, which is something really interesting that I don't think I thought of as consciously before you said it earlier about Rise. And it's sort of in that period when you're a young woman and figuring out your life, you know, we're often told, like, Oh, these are great women, you know, you know, we're told about, like, public figures, or, you know, state officials, or, you know, like Rosa Parks, you know, people that are like history, they're enshrined that they're often not given much personality, because they have like, a myth associated with them. They have like, a, I feel like, every time I've been asked the exercise of like, what's a woman that you look up to? Or who do you, you know, what would be a role model for you? Often, the first people that I would think of would be my mom, my mom, or my grandma, mami Olgi, because they were trailblazers, they are trailblazers, they are incredible women, my mom was one of, I think, four women in the entire school of engineering at her university. This is, she’s why, she's literally, you know, the one person and, you know, she would say no to patriarchal expectations of her in the workplace, or her taking care of kids. And yeah, I just, I've always been really impressed by the women that I've been around. And I think they've definitely been a role model for me to be, you know, stubborn and go for what I want to be honest, I think we often we get this idea of like, Oh, our role models are, you know, the leaders of the world in, you know, we, you know, they're so successful, they're really great, but then we don't hear about them growing up, or their local stories that got them started, or, you know, we don't recognize in our neighbors or, you know, in our family, the people that have done major change, if it's like, on the scale of fighting for their own education, or if it's on the scale of like, you know, Malala you know, going worldwide and, and making really sweeping change. So I think that's, that's really amazing. So I want to hear a little bit more about the research, just how many people did you interview?
Shana 13:11
Yeah, so it was really interesting, because I ended up talking to about maybe, I definitely DM’ed like, probably close to like 60 to 80 people, and then a majority of them actually ended up coming and responding back. So I talked to close to 40 different activists and advocates across the world. And it was really cool, because they were just expand all age ranges, all topics, some people were into, you know, girls education, some were against child marriage, others were into, you know, period rights and period poverty to child marriage, girls education. And it was really cool, because it was just one of those things where, you know, I was all of them were strangers, like I knew maybe one person I interviewed, maybe two, but they all were so receptive, and just so excited to talk and that someone was willing to share their story because some people had been getting maybe local recognition, but they never been reached out to internationally. And they all had just the most amazing stories. And it was just wonderful to see just how many different journeys and paths it can take to change lives, even if it was just their own.
Alexis 14:16
I love hearing about all these stories, because yeah, it's so easy to get caught up in, I remember in high school talking about, you know, for the first time in my US history class, talking about what “big man history” was, and how we draw this outsized attention to typically white men, and the ones who are doing the big things and not paying attention to everyone who's doing so much work on the ground and living lives living their own lives. I also have a question you said earlier, that one of the things that you talk about is how women's empowerment helps. Every one, can you tell us a little bit more about that, and what you mean by that, and how equity equality justice for some is also beneficial to everyone.
Shana 15:10
So when it comes to this, this topic, actually an idea kind of came from my global health background. So that was what my academic focus was in specialization and was in undergrad. And basically, what we learned is in a lot of community health interventions that happens both domestically and internationally, they tend to focus on the women of the community to like, roll out these holistic health interventions. And you know, a lot of people would think, you know, like, maybe why just women like, why not everyone, why not x, why not men, etc. And even though like you said, history is often told from a male perspective, and I think male roles and kind of dominate and they seem like their contributions are dominated in terms of where they're represented. But with women, in different communities, if you focus on supporting them, you realize they have a lot of like, underlying power that's not outwardly recognized, but they have a lot of influence when it comes to the health decisions of their family, they directly correlate with the decision making they do to the health of the people around them, if you involve them in economically, in a community, the whole community is going to thrive, because they'll pour more of their earnings back into their own community. And they just tend to be a little bit more giving per se when it comes to helping everyone reap the rewards of the things that they get. So it was really interesting, because when you see it in that perspective, it makes no sense of like, why don't we just focus or primarily focus on supporting women. And I think that makes it, I don't know how to describe it. But I think it makes it really interesting when you talk about that idea of like equity and justice, where, you know, if you support one group, people tend to think is just uplifting that specific group that's getting support. But rather, it's about bringing up the whole society together as a whole. Because if not, everyone's not on equal ground, you're not getting equal involvement, equal opportunity, equal opportunity to even just thrive and bring in ideas and resources and tapping into the potential of everyone around us.
Linet 17:10
This kind of reminds me of that image that went, I feel like it went viral. It was like a while ago, I want to say it was like four years ago or something. The one where it's like some people looking at a baseball game over a fence. And that there was this idea that there were you know, so there was there two images that I'm thinking of one was, you know, there's a set of three people looking over the fence to look at a baseball game. And in one image, it was like, there was a tall person that could just stand and look over the fence, there was a shorter person that needed like one like, I don't know, cardboard box or something, to look over the fence. And there's one person that needed like three carpet boxes to look over the fence. And they're like, Aha, this is, this is what equity, this is equity. And this is doing things, right. But the real thing, or the problem with that image is that it assumes that there's something you know, it's inherent to that person, the person that they need those boxes, but what reality is, is it's more like they were on uneven ground. So the tall person, so in it, and then another image, everybody is the same height there, somebody went, and it was like, Okay, this image is wrong. I'm going to correct this with my amazing photoshop skills. And these three people instead of, you know, giving them boxes, it was just showing how one of them had was on like a dip. And another one was basically in a hole. And so you know, what the boxes are doing is sort of helping, if you if you make the ground even like you're saying, if you make the ground, even everybody can look at the baseball game. Right? If you fix the ground, and everybody gets from the same starting point, everybody has, you know, access to the same things. I really liked this idea because, like you said, when people, so this is the same rhetoric that I heard around the Black Lives Matter like, well, if we focus on black folks, then you know, do white lives not matter. You know, like do Latina X lives not matter. Do you know people with disabilities that matter? It's like, it's not like at the exclusion of it's by uplifting a certain group by focusing on a certain group or actually uplifting a lot of people because if we focus on women, we focus on all women. We're including queer women, we're including trans women, we're including black women, we're including women with disabilities, we're including older women, we're including younger women, you know, if you limit yourself to thinking of people as monolithic categories, of course, you're not going to fit everybody. But if you're making that intersectional goal, to uplift women, you're lifting all women and by uplifting, all women, you're actually helping us huge chunk of our society of our infrastructure of the people that are working, that are decision makers that are, you know, at the backbone of a lot of our work. If it's, you know, a good chunk of our society, then you're actually helping everybody.
Shana 20:16
Yeah, I feel like it is something, you know, where people tend to, I guess a lot of people have come up to me, specifically men, which not to call them out, but just because, you know, they're talking to me, because they want to engage in the conversation, which is a step up from other people that refuse, and they tend to be like, “What about men?” And I'm like, “no one said that, like, feminism is about like hating men, like, where did that rhetoric come from?” Like, it's not about that. It's about understanding that women have to fight for our problems. And like, like you said, like all these groups like the you to fight to get the attention of the media to fight for people to recognize the harm that's being perpetuated against them. But for privileged groups, in whatever sense of the word, right, whoever belongs to them, their issues are already at the frontline, when they call out for help. They're the first ones people rushed to. So why is it such an issue when these groups that have been historically left out? And you know, then, have like had harm perpetuated against them for centuries, right? Like, why is it so offensive to you, and it's so jarring to see them advocate for themselves. And so I told them, I was like, “It's not about us versus you. It's about us calling you in and saying, Hey, this is unfair. This is what the reality is, even if you haven't experienced it yourself, understand it and help us move forward. So we can all go together.”
Linet 21:39
I'm like, hell yeah. And over here.
Alexis 21:44
One of my things that's been top of my mind lately, is the idea that like, just what we need is more collaboration over competition in terms of mindset, and that like, every time we like, dive into this, like, “oh, it has to be at the expense of one or the other.” It's like, no, that's just not true.
Linet 22:04
That's so anticapitalist of you, Alexis,
Shana 22:07
I love it. I love it, too.
Alexis 22:10
You're welcome. I mean, right. But like this, I mean, I don't know this, for me, arises a lot out of my life experiences with community, whether it was in Scouting, or in fire spinning retreats, etc, etc. Like, it's very funny that we, like, have so much competition in our society, when we know, from experience within any actual group, the group does not thrive on everyone within the group competing with each other, right? Like, it's not like companies, you know, thrive by being like, well, you know, it's gonna be this department versus that department. Right? Like, the company knows, they have to work together as a team and why we can't like, as a society think like, oh, yeah, we got to help each other.
Shana 22:58
Well, we're, it's this idea of, like, people are always in that, you know, it's like the give or take, right? It's like, if I'm not taking from you, like you're taking from me, and like, I feel like that's like this idea of like that competitive nature that's just seeped into, like, our society. So and it's entrenched so deeply, it's like, I'm not, I don't want to take anything from you, I just want you to give something that you already have, it's like, giving a little bit for a larger gain for us all. And it's really not sacrificing much on the parts of the people that are quote, unquote, “giving in” a little bit. And it's this idea of like, it's always like this, me versus you, right? It's like, “if you're winning, I'm losing.” And it's like, this is not a zero sum game, like, we can all go together. But you have to listen, and you have to be open. And like you said, it's like this idea of like, we have to take away that competitive idea that like, we all can't be happy and succeed and live in harmony and thrive and you know, just like have equity, like, it's not something that's impossible. It's just a very difficult concept coming in a capitalist society, like we talked about.
Linet 24:04
One of my favorite phrases is like, “inclusion is a choice.” It's not like, you know, “if I don't include you, then I will be able to gain more.” It's like, “if we include you, then we can gain more together.” And that whole scarcity mindset and competition, and “me first, me first” is absolutely like in the middle of that, you know, fear mongering white supremacist discourse of “us versus them,” right. Like :if you, you know, if you let these people in, then we're going to have less they are taking your jobs, they are, you know, messing up your home values, they are, you know, making your neighborhood less safe. They are, you know, X and Y…” like it just it's all centered on fear. And it's really only benefiting very few to keep that fear rhetoric going. And the more we can break that down, I think really just just like you said, we're going to reach so much higher than we ever could.
Alexis 25:09
Shan, you got to recently engage in this capitalist system of doing, you know, all this in terms of publishing your first book. And I know that that was a big challenge. What was it like working within that system?
Shana 25:27
Yeah, “big challenge” is definitely the word for it. Um, you know, it was interesting, because I think my experience was different than most authors in the sense that I had a guided program, technically, that I was a part of, and I think what's so interesting about the experience that I had, and I think this is bears a lot of capitalism, if we're talking about it, is the idea of a promise of something that never is actually fulfilled in the way that you anticipate it. And I think it's the idea of like, they're saying, like, “yeah, you can have this,” but then you realize, like, in the process of getting that final thing you're looking for, you're gonna have to go through so many more struggles, depending on your intersection of identities, and, like, quote, unquote, “like a typical white man,” you right? So it's was really interesting, because, you know, I was given this idea and like, kind of sold this dream of, you know, like, “this book is gonna give you the life that you want.” You know, it's meant to help you get your dream job, and like, “we're gonna be here to support you” and all these things. What was really interesting is like, being one of the few, at least young women of color that was in the program that I knew of working with a completely white team, it was really a lot more jarring than I had anticipated. Because when you're creating a book based on the stories of mainly women of color, while also weaving your own story, as a woman of color, you find that you know, the language, you kind of come in at odds with this idea of like, “oh, maybe because I'm young, I'm inexperienced, and they know better” versus “this is my story. And these are the stories of the people that directly told this, to me, like this is how it should be written.” I felt like I was at odds a lot. Because not only did I feel like sometimes information was just not directly given to me when it should have been like, given to me way ahead of time that I had to like, pull it out of people like to kind of put out dumpster fires that were happening. But I ended up shouldering like a lot of the work independently and individually where I did a lot of like the marketing, fundraising, cover design ended up being completely me. And I tended to have to, like towards the end, I felt like I had to fight a lot to get the book to look the way it even did until like, give it the attention and the time and quality it deserved. And it was interesting, because it's this idea of like I was promised this whole system and like, yes, there were things that of course, are positive, like I had some wonderful people work with me in the book. And I think a lot of them definitely did have good intentions. But at the end of the day, in a society like this, like you can promise a young brown girl a lot of things, but you don't tell her how difficult it's actually going to be to get them because hypothetically, she could of course get anything she wants, like the American dream or whatnot. But at the end of the day, you're not going to bring up all the barriers that she has to go through just to tell her own story, which is completely her own. But other people are going to tell her what they think about her story. And I think that's what was really so shocking and unexpected and made the process a lot less enjoyable than I wish it could have been considering it was my first book. We all wish for the best and hope for the best now that the people because you see the best I think and yourself like you want to assume other people are going to do what you would do. And then I think it's a very like hard, kind of like shock to reality when you realize not everyone is that considerate. But you know, it wasn't all bad. I'm stronger for it.
Linet 28:53
I mean, I think this goes to show when people are like, well, there just aren't enough books written by X, right? Like women of color, for example, like this is part of what that is, in this day and age like we're not talking about, like the 30s or something when you had to had pseudonyms and pretend you're a dude. Like, it's still you know, we're in this like “modern times,” quote unquote. And this is still what you have to put up with, like this is still the challenge, like your words were being contested, the way the stories are meant to be shared, was being, you know, written off or you know, people are trying to change your language they're trying to change like the full essence of what the book was or is and you know, I feel that you know, maybe out of 100 women of color, young women of color writing their books on whatever topic, you know, if all of them are receiving this kind of treatment, this kind of, you know, pushback, this kind of censorship or like, you know, like last minute, oh, you have to take care of everything. I'm sure a lot of people would quit. So you were one of probably a lot of people that we wouldn't have heard from possibly haven't heard from, like I'm considering, like all the listeners out there that have maybe had a story to write, or something to say. And you've been shot down by a mentor or a program or you know, somebody that you looked up to. So I would encourage you to, you know, hear this story right now. And pick up the pen again, find a different mentor. You know, find the people that do support you because the rest of it, you know, just throw them in the garbage. Like, seriously, you don't need them. I'm impressed that you were able to make it through and it is not fair that you had to make it through all that. So I'm going to give us a little pause here while we take a quick break and then we'll be back with more from Shana.
Seth 31:06
Hi, everyone, this is Seth and I am one of the audio editors and volunteers here at UBP. The Unconscious Bias Project brings creative, accessible, evidence-based solutions for unintentional bias to academic, technological, governmental organizations, and beyond. We sustain a welcoming home for inquisitive and creative minds and encourage a growth mindset. Working by the model of “0% Guilt, 100% Empowerment.” Please subscribe or follow our Facebook and Instagram for the latest in events and how you can learn more and be involved. Also, take a look and check out our guest's website and learn more. Look for that information in the description section of your podcast or on our website.
Linet 31:57
Hey everybody, Linet here, I am so excited to tell you about our event coming up this April 25th at 5pm. Go ahead and mark your calendars. We're going to have a virtual Bay Area Science Festival events. Our event is called “Oh, Behave! Changing the Way We React to Bias and Discrimination.” And we'll have a special guest Professor Eason on the event with us. Professor Eason is a UC Berkeley psychologist. And she's going to tell us about “representational landscapes” - I love that word - and tell us about why folks like Native Americans and queer people often get left out of our national narratives and what we can do to tackle that plus, of course, we're going to have our classic UBP science-tested practical techniques that we'll get to learn and apply in the moment. So don't miss it. Monday, April 25, 5-6pm You'll be able to tune in live on our Facebook page, or you can register for the zoom. Go ahead and check out our website for event details or head over to tiny.cc/ohbehave. One word. See you there.
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to our pod with Shana Abram. Shana, you just told us about going through some serious bullshit, really a very challenging experience to even get Rise into book form. Looking back at this very challenging experience, what would you want to tell pre-Rise Shana, that you would learn in this process? Or do you have any words of encouragement for her?
Shana 33:37
Yeah, I mean, I definitely reflect on this a lot. And I think what's been so interesting is I've used the, this reflection and this experience to encourage and say these things to other young women that have come up to me asking about for advice, or support writing their own books or stories, which has been really exciting. And so what I tell them, which is what I would tell pre-Rise Shana is, “your story matters. You know, your voice matters.” I think for a lot of the time, like, you know, choosing the format I chose with Rise, I was really focused on trying to uplift the voices of other women, like I didn't want to center myself. But something I learned was that people also needed what I was preaching, which is basically that you didn't have to be this amazing changemaker to have your story and voice matter to and your own thoughts matter. And so I think I would really want her to just know that you don't have to shy away from telling your own story. You don't have to invalidate your own experiences, because other people will do that enough for you. So you need to be the last person to do that. And also just setting boundaries and realizing that just because you're young does not mean that you don't know better, you don't know what would work, of course, like taking in the advice of professionals is, you know, granted, and you should take it with a grain of salt. But don't think that just because you're young and you were like in a guided program that you didn't know how to guide yourself because at the end of the day, if I had left Rise to the devices of the people that like, completely into the hands of the people that were supposed to support me, like y'all would have had the ugliest cover of all time, one. And two, like, it just would not have sounded like it came from a young brown woman, it would have sounded like it came from an older white woman, because that's who wanted to was rewriting my story, even if she had good intentions. And so I think really setting those boundaries and just not invalidating your own thoughts and ideas. It's like I kept on doubting myself and doubting my own gut reactions. And I felt like I just wasted so much time when I should have just been firm and saying, like, “this is my book, like, it's my name that's attached to this, this is my story. It's my months of research, I should be a little bit more decisive. And actually, you should in fact, listen to me when I have a question. And you shouldn't be withholding information from me until the last second where I have to do damage control.” Like it wasn't fair. And I think also articulating this in the time period versus would like not saying anything, throughout the whole process, I've wished that I could have left that program, at least giving them something to think about for the future for future people that come through that program, especially young women.
Alexis 36:01
So how do you think those lessons are going to help you in the next five years with where Rise will go?
Shana 36:09
You know, what I love about Rise is that it's really touched people that I never would have crossed paths with otherwise, I love that with Rise as, especially as an organization and the work that I do on my platform. It's really encouraging young women to share their stories and really, like get to know other women. And it really focuses a lot on like, not just providing strategies about like social activism and social justice, which of course, is super important to us as well, but rather, like “how do you create boundaries and set boundaries?” Like, “what is it like to have like healing and self care and the workplace as a woman of color?” Like we offer all those kinds of programming, and we really try and get a diverse range of experts and collaborators to come share their strategies and ideas and experiences, by being surrounded by it more and having more opportunities to engage with people that are true to them. In that sense, other people feel and young women feel encouraged to also advocate for themselves and set these boundaries and go after what they want without apology. And so I'm really hoping that I continue to advocate for myself, because I think at this point, you know, advocating for myself is also aligning with the mission of Rise, which is that anyone can be a change maker, anyone can be this leader, but you have to be willing to step up and believe in yourself first before other people can have the chance to believe in you. And so I'm really hoping that in the next five years, it just grows and reaches more people. We, I know, we joked about the conference and the global tour. But yeah, I don't know if it'll happen the next five years, but I'd love to do a conference, even if it's just like in one city just to meet more people in person COVID permitting, I just miss connecting with people in person, and just getting to like, talk to girls and women and just hearing their stories in person and encouraging them to live their life and figure out how they can get their communities to support them.
Linet 37:56
You know, as you've cultivated this online community, it would be nice to meet each other right? And to see see folks face to face you have to you do have different conversations in person and you know, build more experiences and and learn from each other. I think it would be really beautiful. I was laughing but I am totally serious. I was laughing because I was like, Oh my gosh, this is this this is it. Like if this isn't happening already, like this needs to happen. It'd be really great to make it happen.
Shana 38:27
I believe in us.
Linet 38:28
Okay, well, when you do, like, definitely let us know, we'll amplify it on our pad. We'll put it on our website, we'll let people know. Thank you, because that would be awesome. But what about you? What about you in the next five years?
Shana 38:43
You know, Shana was, has been having her pre-quarter-life crisis. So it's definitely been on the mind. But I don't know, I think I've really, you know, I talked to a mentor yesterday. And we've really connected on just the fact that we tend to be the first people in our communities or that we knew that we're really choosing a very different path. And I think what's really worked out for me so far is I just really have tried to trust myself more and follow my gut. And it's really brought like so many opportunities and open door that I never would have even dreamed of being available to me because I just want to do things based on what I think is best for me. And I don't tie myself too much just the specific idea of success. But I'm hoping in the next five years to continue doing work with Rise. I love my team that I work with. I love the women that I get to interact with and the people that I get to have conversations with and creating those spaces. You know, my ultimate goal, which I don't know if it'll happen in five years, but I really want to educate myself enough and become a great facilitator to the point where I can be a thought leader in my field and I really want to just continue to learn continue to accept more call-ins and corrections for people to help, you know, guide my work and make sure I'm being more inclusive and uplifting other women because I I think my strength is storytelling and helping other women tell their stories. And I love uplifting them and facilitating them being able to have the chances to share their experiences and share the wisdom that they've gained in maybe their, you know, short life so far, a very long life, wherever they've come from, however old they are. So yeah, I just want to keep doing what I'm doing. And just to find more ways to get, increase my impact so people can learn about Rise and just the message behind it.
Alexis 40:30
You mentioned that you are always trying to learn always trying to, you know, be willing to keep working. Do you have any advice for listeners who aren't women, on how they themselves can do work can support all women?
Shana 40:45
Yeah, oh, my god, I love this. Well, first, I would say, “listen,” and I think people, it's so simple, but I don't think people really understand, listening is not just hearing, right? It's listening actively. It's not just hearing someone to respond and insert your own opinion and own ideas of what they should or shouldn't do or feel, but rather listen to them and really see and try and seek to understand their perspective, their experience. And even if you can't 100% ever relate to it fully, trying your best to get there and understand like, where do you fit in? What are they asking for? Because at the end of the day, people tend to try and create solutions for people and groups of people that they don't belong to. And I think they don't realize like the groups have the answers, but no one's listening. And no one's willing to like, hear them out. Yes. Right. So I feel like that's my number one simplest easy to implement advice is listen to women, when they state their stories, when they're telling you what they need and want, and you know, validate their experiences, understand that even if you've never experienced it, or you don't maybe even fully understand it, that it's real. And it's a reality, even if it's not your reality. So that's always my first, you know, piece of advice. And I think, after that, you know, get involved in like, really uplift women in your own way. Like maybe you support women-led organizations, maybe you just, by done, intervene on the behalf of a woman coworker that you have our colleague, if you see her getting stepped over, you know, advocate so that the women don't have to always advocate on their own behalf like you, I think people if you've been attentive and attuned to what's going on, you can see the issues, they just feel like they they can't step in, but at least tried to step in, and the best way you can. And if you get corrected to get as a call-in, don't take it as a call out. It's all about getting us all together in the same place and just becoming better.
Alexis 42:42
Do you have any additional words for our women listeners on how they can support themselves and each other?
Shana 42:49
Yeah, well, to my women who I absolutely adore, and even if I don't know, you, I would say “I see you.” And you know, there are people that will see you. And I think I want to let you all know that there are going to be people that bring you down, of course, but there's so many more people out there that are willing to support you even without knowing you and want to know your story and relate to it. And you're not alone in the things that you experience, even if it feels like you're the only person in the world that is going through that exact thing. And so I would encourage you to you know, obviously, we've you know, had to be strong. And I feel like a lot of us have hardened ourselves against the world because it feels like that's the only way we can protect ourselves in some instances. And that's not a wrong reaction at all. And you're completely valid in that. But I also encourage you to like, if you have this space and you feel comfortable, like also, you know, stay open and be that be in tune with your inner woman and feel like you can actually just be your full self, if you can find the community for you. So, you know, stay true to yourself, you're going to get to where you need to go and your story matters. And I hope you tell it and feel encouraged to tell it in whatever medium feels right to you. And like making any change. It doesn't have to be Malala-level it doesn't have to be international, even if it's just in yourself, that's equally as important. So I hope you just choose to live the life that you deserve and believe that you can have it.
Linet 44:14
Um, so we're at the time and our podcasts where we ask our dear guest - do you want to give a shout out shout out to people or programs or, or books? It can be, right as it can be or a podcast or a movie. Anything that you want to give a shout out to. This is your spot.
Shana 44:35
Well, thank you for the space to do this. Well, first of all shout out to y'all in the Unconscious Bias Project for having me on. It's been such a pleasure to get to know you and talk with you. And I really do. And of course and I think you know secondary like obviously I had quite a journey with my book, but anyone that helps me, you know, in developing and creating an ideating Rise would still not be here without that experience and I think it gave me a lot of formative experiences and it was a true labor of love that changed the course of my life. I'm very grateful for those people that supported me. I definitely, of course, my family and my friends who have definitely helped me battle impostor syndrome. This whole journey with Rise , they've always been supportive, and my biggest fans and honestly, my personal PR team, I think my friends do way more PR for Rise than I have ever done. They, I probably should be paying them for the amount of work they do, but I don't have that kind of money. So I hope my love and affection is enough for y'all. But other than that, you know, and just the women that have really helped me mentor me, I love one of my mentors, Allysha, I just talked to her yesterday and she is one of my biggest inspirations and makes me feel encouraged to do what I want to do in my life. And she gives me that validation and guidance that I hope to pay forward to my own team who supports me, and obviously shout out to Rise, you know, my true child, my first child, my labor of love, even if I don't have my times where I think I could have done things differently or better. It's perfect the way it is, because that's what I could do at the time. And it's resonating with women and people across the world and it's opening doors and conversations that were previously closed. So I'm grateful to that and that experience checkout Rise Women, I feel like we have a lot of features on there like different women that we've featured. The activists that I've supported checkout Rise if you're interested in hearing the stories of them, that's kind of it.
Linet 46:23
So got that everybody check out Rise @risewomenco on Instagram to catch the latest on Rise and be a part of the community. Thank you so much, Shana, it was a total pleasure to have you on the pod.
Shana 46:44
Thanks so much, y'all. It was great to have this conversation with you.
Seth 46:49
Thanks for listening. You can find more information and donate at unconsciousbiasproject.org. Dr. Linet Mera, she/her, and Alexis Krohn, she/her, are your hosts. Seth Boeckman, he/they, is your editor. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and follow us. We can be found on Facebook at Unconscious Bias Project, Twitter at UBP_stem, LinkedIn, Instagram, or join our mailing list. UBP is a fiscally sponsored project of the Social Good Fund, a tax-deductible 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. If you wish to sponsor us, please contact us in the contact us tab at unconsciousbiasproject.org.