Published on: Jan 25, 2022

We have one heck of an amazing podcast for you. We talked with Rohan Rohan Zhou-Lee (they/Siya/Tā) about community, about overcoming divisiveness, about how diversity is a source of richness. We talked about how direct and immediate action is just as critical as building relationships and giving space to trust over time.

Please check out their website and suggestions in this episode:

Rohan on Facebook
Rohan on Instagram: @diaryofafirebird
The Blasian March

Resources and Activists cited in this episode:
Grace Lee Boggs
James Boggs
Bayard Rustin
Kiyoshi Kuromiya
Kimberlé Crenshaw
Ahed Tamimi
Talila Lewis
Rosemary Campbell Stephens
Kalaya’an Mendoza
Deepa Iyer - Social Change Ecosystem Map
Octavia Butler
Virulent Hate
Sole Yu
Lee Painter Kim
Robyn Ayers
Bradley Tangonan
Sunehra Subah

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Transcript

Linet  00:08

Hey, everybody, we have one heck of an amazing podcast in store for you today. We talked about community, we talked about divisiveness, we talked about just thinking about diversity as a source of richness, how direct and immediate action is just as critical as building relationships and giving space to trust over time. It's going to be a real treat. And I'm so excited for you all to listen. Enjoy.

Hi, everyone. Hola a todes, this is Linet and Alexis here you are co hosts of the Unconscious Bias Project podcast, both she/her pronouns, bringing you impactful stories and interviews from our communities. We have our favorite people on to share their experiences, viewpoints and the topics that matter to them the most, so that we can all support each other.

Alexis  01:08

And before we kick off, we would like to encourage everyone to learn about the Ohlone people and the current Shellmound protests to defend their life, heritage, and rights. Unconscious Bias Project is based in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, which is unceded ancestral homeland belonging to the Ramaytush Ohlone and Muwekma Ohlone peoples. Support our work by supporting them too. 

Linet  01:34

And now I'd like to introduce our wonderful guest Rohan! Rohan Zhou-Lee, pronouns they/Siya/Tā, is the founder of the Blasian March, a solidarity movement for Black, Asian and Blasian communities through education on parallel struggles with racial injustice and mutual celebration. Independent of the Blasian March, they co-organised with a team of women of color the End Violence Towards Asians United Against White Nationalism rally as well as the Protect Asian Lives gathering in 2021. In addition to their activism, Rohan is a professional dancer and writer with performances at the New Bedford Festival Theater, Victoria Ballet Theater, Circa Pintig, and writing featured on them.us. So welcome, Rohan, thanks so much for joining us.

Rohan  02:31

Oh, thank you for having me. So great to be here. 

Linet  02:35

So for those avid listeners out there, and people that really follow UBP, you will recognize Rohan from our "Stop AAPI Hate and Activate" outreach event earlier this year, which was super cool. But before we talk more about that, I want our listeners to know about the Blasian March. What is the Blasian March?

Rohan  02:58

Wow, that is a good question. You know, when I first like saw that, I was like, “oh, I'll just give the usual like, mission statement.” But now like, what is it, I honestly do not know sometimes. like, because the thing is it does center as a vision around Black Asian solidarity. But I'm always constantly thinking about, you know, so many other Black Asian solidarity icons, initiatives, like Grace Lee Boggs and her work, and how she said we have to reimagine everything. And you know, sometimes the Blasian March, it has such an evolution to it. So at first it was supposed to be just a one-time offshoot of Black Lives Matter, but it was more inclusive to Asian Americans. But with the rise of Stop Asian Hate, with the, you know, greater political awareness of the Asian American experience, alongside the Black experience here on the stolen land, it has evolved into so many things. It's a space for joy. It's a space for healing. It's a space for what I hope to be honest conversation, and a space just to really continue the legacy of these icons that I can only emulate in this very, very small way through in-person marches, through healing circles for Black Asians, you know, so many other projects we have that are constantly reassessing: what is solidarity and how do we reach it?

Alexis  04:48

This question about “what is solidarity?” is so important, as we keep making sure that we have everyone within our communities right represented and are fighting for everybody within our communities. And that includes any of the intersectional identities that are within it. Right?

Rohan  05:09

Right. Right, exactly. And for me, there's a constant reassessment of like, understanding that solidarity is a word that we have learned through English, which is a colonizer language. So as we have seen earlier this year, with like, you know, media creating some false stories, such white mythology around Black Asian relations, we see that sometimes we tend to build solidarity through a colonial white lens. Sometimes I feel we really need to start looking at solidarity as an idea that is rooted in our intersectional history to borrow language from Kimberlé Crenshaw and her idea of intersectionality.

Linet  05:56

I think that's really interesting and important, and it's something that I don't think - I definitely, I'll fess up to, I definitely hadn't really considered it in that way of how, you know, I think, up until like, maybe eight years ago or something, I hadn't really considered how we shape activism, how we shape policy, how we shape programs, to, you know, uplift, support, empower, you know, whatever, people that are underrepresented people that have been oppressed, it is often through a white lens, and it is often through a colonial lens, sort of like, I just think it's such an interesting thing to consciously know, and reposition, and easy, I guess, give me - an example that pops up for me was the pink hats March, right, that happened when Trump - was it before Trump or as Trump came into power or whatever? - there is the pink hats March and it was it went viral. There were all these people that were knitting pink hats, and they were going out on a march. And the idea is that it was like women, a women's march, and it was women marching against Trump. And it was like, yeah, I was, it was all over the place. It was international, it spread everywhere, but so anybody that has a vagina that's not wjote is not going to have necessarily, pink lips on their vagina, right. And not everybody that's a woman is gonna have a vagina. And it was just such, it was such a mess. And for our listeners, like maybe considering this for the first time, it is just such, it's so ingrained into how we talk about women, how we talk about feminism, to think about like, bodies and reproductive rights, but like, not everybody that identifies as women cares about reproduction, not everybody that identifies as women has a uterus or plans to get pregnant or, you know, it just, it's such a narrowly defined way of thinking of gender, and coming back to talk about Black Lives Matters, and sort of a lot of the activism, which I mean, was awesome to see, in this time, you know, really thinking about the intersectionality, that's one of the things that really struck me, when I first started learning about the movement, the action, the programs that you're cultivating, is you didn't just stop at Black and Asian, you were like, “no, no, and queer.” And, you know, any intersection of Blasian with disabilities, like, let's not forget that, you know, one category, two categories, three categories doesn't exclude you know, I don't know 50 others or a, you know, a shifting spectrum of identities, right. Like, you know, why do we have to define ourselves in such a way, when we created and I say, we as like, general, we, you know, have created programs that are like, oh, no, to uplift Black people, to empower women to- and it's like, well, maybe it's not the women that haven't had the power maybe it's not the Black people that don't have the resources, maybe it's because there is that history of oppression and we don't necessarily have to define it through the white lens of like, “oh, you need help and I'm gonna go help you.” It's like, let's examine it through understanding like, okay, there's a historical context that has forced us to, you know, identify through the color of our skin, for example, or through our, express identity, or however, that looks to acknowledge that but not make it the definition and the be-all end-all right. Like, how about healing? How about community? How about the ways in which we are so, so similar? How about, you know, I have a very different experience from you, you know, listeners and folks on this podcast, but it doesn't mean I can't, I can't empathize, I can't learn about your struggles and see how I can support in sort of modern movements that I've witnessed. There's not a ton of movements that so start in the outset as being intentionally intersectional, and then stay intersectional. And I think that's really powerful.

Rohan  10:36

Huh, thank you for the affirmation, because you totally just like sprung up some of my memories, attending the women's marches, it was the first year and the second year. For me, I definitely resonate with what you're saying about, you know, how we only understand feminism, quite honestly, through a male gaze, we understand women's rights through only the context of a woman's body, which really is subjugates bodies and body types, to you know, a certain narrative when, you know, as you said, women's rights intersects everything. I remember, the second time I went to the women's march, and, you know, couldn't help it, notice that there was some segregational divides. And I remember, I was a little kind of like, I wasn't feeling it, because I did not see women who looked like my mother there. I didn't see women who looked like, you know, the trans Black women I organize with I didn't see women, like the Filipina queer women I organized with back when I was in Chicago. So this was the Chicago Women's March, we came across this contingent of Palestinian organizers. And they were in a circle and dancing. And they were chanting the name of a girl, I believe it was, yeah, Ahed Tamimi. And she was a child whom Israeli police had arrested for standing up, I believe she was, if I remember correctly, protecting her brother or something. But the fact that the Women's March specifically moved around, or avoided this Palestinian group, that was chanting for a girl, and was also chanting alongside Black women and chanting Black Lives Matter. It to me was like, you know, this is the power of joy as a weapon that I just resonated with. And so I actually, like, disengaged from the Women's March because I was like, I mean, I'm glad I was here, because now I have found a space where I see Black women and Palestinian people, Palestinian women sharing space and moving together. And I was like, wow, like this, this is so powerful, and so incredible. And even though it was such a small bit of the March, it’s the part of that day that I remember, you know,

Linet  13:09

Wow, that's such a powerful memory. How did you get into activism is that you organize, you've been a part of Marches before, sort of what got you into that activism? And then what, where were you like, you know what, I need to start a Blasian March and I'm going to make it in this intentionally intersectional way. And, like, Screw every other way that people want to define us, like, you know, block us off into a section or whatever, this is just the way I'm going to do it.

Rohan  13:48

Oh, wow. Um, as I looking back, I'm realizing how coming into my activism is rooted in so much of my own just personal experience, like understanding that, you know, my parents specifically my mother was the kind of person who would you know, be a Black mom ,do everything she could to keep her babies safe. And now that I look at Black Lives Matter movement, and how you know, that is the affirmation of Black life, being a Black parent is a Black Lives Matter action, like being a Black parent or parent of color that you know, loves her child does everything they can to preserve the life of their child that is an act of revolution. I keep telling people the fact that we are breathing, the fact that we are existing, as we choose to exist in a way that honors our truth and honors our ancestors, that is an act of revolution. Like every day I am alive is a revolutionary act because we live in a colonial state that thrives on our suffering and thrives on our extermination. So I will give a nod to my mother. And she also is a Black Asian, she's Chinese and Filipina. And, you know, growing up, we grew up in Georgia. And we were very much involved in the Chinese communities. My mother worked, she was director of NF affairs, external relations, for the state of Atlanta. So I was always kind of like around international people revolving around intersectional spaces. But I would definitely say, you know, she also exposed me to like, Black classical music and Chinese classical music. And we're both classical musicians. So like, the framework she gave me, I think just gives like enough of my intellectual understanding, from a very young age to be right and now, and I think, my first time doing like an actual, like, action, like protest action would have been junior year in college, there was a group called ANUP, it was the Asian Northwestern University Project. And basically, it was a space to talk about, you know, the Asian American experience on campus, to talk about the Asian American history on campus. You know, there was that group that I learned about the hunger strike that Asian American students did to get an Asian American studies program. You know, we had group circles to talk about our experiences. And at first, you know, I only identified as being a Jamaican American in high school, I went to an international school and then college is when I tried to, like, sort of understand the context of race more, you know, a lot of times I would - being raised to be very proud of my Asian heritage, that became a huge conflict with several communities, being a Black Asian, you know, with Asian communities, there was this constant “Oh, you can't be one of us because you're Black.” Or you know, and then on, you know, people would literally forget, I was Filipino, like, people are like, “Oh, thank you for your solidarity with our Filipino communities.” I'm like, “Um, yes, I am greatly in solidarity with my ancestors who were dragged to the Caribbean by the Spanish. Yes, yes. Okay. Thank you.” Um, and the Black side of the community, there is this constant, very explicit verbal violence I experienced I was anti-Asian that was this sort of like denial that I could be Asian, like people would say things like, you must hate being Black. Someone asked if I was getting therapy. Yeah, I was asked if I was getting therapy for my identity crisis.

Linet  18:01

Came up in casual conversation. “Yeah. So are you getting like physical therapy for your knee and like, you know, therapy for your identity crisis? Because, like, obviously…”

Rohan  18:11

“I'm so sorry, photos of my great grandfather from China. Clearly, I'm having a dysmorphia issue. I don't know what's going on. Someone help me.” Oh, my God. But yeah, junior year, I had come just to understand that the community, that I didn't belong specifically in a Black community, Asian community or the LGBT community on campus, I belonged in a community that I made. And that tends to be the folks who can live in a space of reciprocal affirmation that end up being mostly a lot of Asian folks were also mixed with other things. And so at this, there was one ANUP gathering, the first gathering I went to, I felt that I was taking up space, I didn't belong, like I was like, Well, I am of like, Chinese descent, but I feel like I'm a guest in this space. But it wasn't until the second gathering, I think, was like the last gathering before the actual protests on campus. And it was the first time I said to entire room of people “I am Asian.” Like, I was always like, I'm a businessman. That's No, but I was like, “No, I am an Asian American.” And I draw power in that truth. I am powerful in that truth. And so our first protest, we went up and down campus, and it was great because it was also a celebration of Asian Americans. And I got to do ballet at the protest. And it was just like, so remarkable. And yeah, and then a year later, there was an action for a Black employee that the university had mistreated. And so like that part of me came out, but that's kind of where my roots in activism came from. And then that evolved into me getting involved with a Filipino group in Chicago called Anakbayan. And then me coming to New York, after losing my day job.

Linet  20:18

And that's super cool. I think, for myself, I also started in activism in college, and similarly started gaining understanding of racism and what that means. So how did that feed into how you built the Blasian March? Was it like super intentional, you're like, “Okay, this is what I'm going to define. These are going to be our codes of conduct, this is how I'm going to have” or were you like, “I need to see the space and I need to nucleate it now.”

Rohan  20:49

I'm definitely gonna say combination of the two. So the Blasian March was kind of born out of a actually pretty traumatic incident while organizing on the ground. Yeah, I was organizing with a predominantly, you know, cishet Asian American circle of people. And, you know, I was trying to figure out, you know, we are in the middle of the pandemic, this is around August time. So there's still a lot of like fury and societal rage over, not just the death of George, murder of George Floyd, but the murder of Tony McDade. And all the other people that I can't name off the top of my head right now, Breonna Taylor. 

Linet  21:36

Right. That's, that's the reality. Right? I mean, of course, there are the ones that made the news, the most. Tony, Breonna, George. 

Rohan  21:45

And so I was trying to organize within this circle of Asian American folks who were predominately Chinese. I was trying to figure out, you know, how can we tie in this into Black Lives Matter? How can we bring this together, and my ideas are kind of put to the side, which is fine. I understand. Sometimes people need to have those conversations within their community first day of the action, my safety was put at risk. Because of that, I felt the need to create my own space. And that was my healing process. I was like, “you know what? I'm gonna do solidarity my way.” And because of that, I will constantly acknowledge that the work I have done is very directly inspired by the Filipina and other Asian queer organizers I've worked with in Chicago, as well as a lot of the Black trans organizers I've worked with here in New York. Because, you know, within the Black Lives Matter movement, even though the founders, all women, even though two of the founders are queer, we see white narratives and white mythology taking over the spaces. You know, we forget that “Black Lives Matter” means the affirmation of all Black lives no matter what that means, you know, equitable housing, universal housing, universal health care, immigration, justice, LGBT rights, where Black life intersects with everything. So you know why these things aren't being included in mainstream media is once again, in my opinion, to assert a certain control over the narrative, and to inspire segregation. So you see in the Black Lives Matter movement, or the outside revolved around the movement, in my opinion, a lot of white media only emphasizing narratives of police violence against cishet Black men, and I have seen on the ground, how that translates into a hierarchy of gender, a hierarchy of sexuality, and a hierarchy of ability. Because you know, we are I'm right now reading an essay by Talila Lewis. Talila talks a lot about how - Talila Lewis is the Black Disability Justice organizer. And the essay really capitulates and highlights and emphasizes how the vast majority, over half of police violence is acted on people who have varying degrees of disability. So when we see these hierarchies of power and privilege, it manifests in interpersonal violence, and it manifests in the erasure of people from the movement. So here in New York, what I love seeing with so many Black trans folks just starting their own action and really trying to fight that erasure from the story. And so for me, it was kind of like, not only did I experience this incident of, you know, where my safety as the only Black person on the team, the only visibly queer person on the team was put at risk. But, you know, if I don't do something, if I don't make it explicitly clear on the ground, in the photos in the videos what I am, I am participating in my own erasure. So creating the Blasian March, over time, I began to realize this is how I counter this erasure. This is how I have countered that sort of interpersonal violence, I've experienced the fact that I have experienced anti-Asian and anti-Blackness, because the color of my skin and the texture of my hair from both sides of the community, this is how I have been like, “you know, we are going to build a space, that one is grounded on intersectionality.” So we are going to have to constantly reimagine what intersectionality even looks like, that means having Black trans speakers, that means if folks are comfortable, having disabled speakers, our Pride rally, we had, you know, Blasian speakers, south of Indo-Caribbean speakers, there was one woman, and she is both Native American and Asian American. So seeing not only that, but also being like, this is also part of the storytelling. And this is so important for the storytelling. Because if I'm not proactively telling my story and putting it, documenting it, putting it on the map, I will be erased from this whole story as well.

Alexis  26:46

And I think about that storytelling, and also think about, like, I think about narratives a lot in terms of, for instance, trans narratives that there is, you know, for instance, one dominant trans narrative that, you know, oh, we hate our bodies growing up, and then we transition and then everything is sunshine and roses, there is this narrative of deep-seated self-loathing of our own bodies. That isn't true for all trans people. I love hearing people from various backgrounds, adding their voices, because, of course, there's never just one simple narrative. And so getting to hear a multitude of narratives gives more and more depth also to those communities, as we understand the multitude of people within them. And that's one of the things I really liked about hearing your story as well,

Linet  27:40

To jump on the narrative bandwagon, it's one of the things that, obviously, Alexis and I are in the business, let's say, of diversity, equity, inclusion consulting, and the way that we've we've positioned ourselves is like, “Hey, we're doing, we're using data centered methods, we're using evidence.” But like, one thing that people often think, both in like science fields, or you know, in just like, in media, is this idea that, you know, stories aren't data, right? Like a narrative, somebody's life experience isn't as critical a piece of evidence as like a number representing the experience of millions of people, right? Somehow, that difference in the value of even one person's narrative of hearing that one person's voice that one person's experience, is often just as critical to not just like, communicate the diversity of the variety of life and experience that contributes to someone's narrative to their, you know, to their day today, but it's also like, it can be the thing that changes somebody's mind. Like, this is one of the powerful things, I think, in both DEUI consultancy and in policy building and activism, is to be able to connect narrative to numbers and to action. That's an important thing that narrative, that experience is data. It is fact, it is evidence, it is a reality, and the more we can define spaces to broaden the narratives we're taking in. Really, I think we're just all going to be better off.

Alexis  29:27

All right, thank you so much, Rohanm for all of this great discussion. We're going to take a moment to go to a quick break where Seth is going to give us some announcements and then we will be right back. 

BREAK

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Seth  44:30

Hi, everyone, this is Seth and I am one of the audio editors and volunteers here at UBP. The Unconscious Bias Project brings creative, accessible, evidence-based solutions for unintentional bias to academic, technological, governmental organizations, and beyond. We sustain a welcoming home for inquisitive and creative minds and encourage a growth mindset. Working by the model of “0% Guilt, 100% Empowerment.” Please subscribe or follow our Facebook and Instagram for the latest in events and how you can learn more and be involved. Also, take a look and check out our guest's website and learn more. Look for that information in the description section of your podcast or on our website.

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Alexis  31:51

Welcome back, everyone. We are still so excited to be here with Rohan. Picking up on about the Blasian March, who is it that you work with? How do you find these allies to work with, and what kinds of other projects go with that.

Rohan  32:08

So I definitely will say that I work with intersectional feminists, because I am kind of of the belief that this is intersectional work. Therefore the people who are doing the work need to have that sort of intersectional mentality as we go along, you know. And that means virtually, anyone who is able to contribute to the process, center joy in the process, center healing in the process, because you know, a lot of us folks who are marginalized, oppressed, or as Rosemary Campbell Stevens says, “of the global majority,” we are carrying so much weight on our shoulders, weight that we don't even recognize, because it's not weight that we have personally experienced. Some of that weight is inherited trauma. Some of that is maybe a paternal experience as being taught to you because of certain violence they experienced. And it's so important to recognize that as we do this work, as we are, you know, working for our global liberation, we're also working on our internal liberation. So for me, that means recognizing my trauma, and then recognizing that as much as I have an inherited trauma, I have also inherited the joy of my ancestors, I have inherited the power of my ancestors. So I think these are the kind of folks I like to work with. Just because ideologically we're on the same page. We are able to, as my safety lead Kalaya'an Mendoza always says, “we work at the pace of trust and not the pace of hate.”

Linet  34:06

That piece is something that I feel I constantly battle with. So personally, thinking of like, you know, I see things happening in Palestine and in Colombia, you know, like in the park nearby in Duboce Triangle or like, a kid got shot and I'm like, I need to do something right now and I need to like, act immediately. I need to do something, I need to tackle this and while I think there is always space, right, for immediate action, you know, obviously if somebody is in harm, do something, right, if there is like a something that isn't being named or some you know, terrible thing, like the murder of George Floyd, like the murder of Tony McDade, you know that adding a voice saying like “this is wrong” is important. And I think what's so what's so powerful is to combine that with the long-term, with giving space with building trust, it's one of the things that is also a sort of like push and pull, and doesn't have to be binary is a push and pull in our work is, sometimes we get folks that are like, “Okay, I want to make a diversity statement, we want to support Black lives matter, we need like a talk right now. And then we're going to do a bunch of workshops, and they were, you know, and then we're going to do this,” and they're going to do that for a like, I don't know, 500 person company. And it's like, “is this the first time you're going to talk about this stuff? Like, what is everybody saying about? Like, what's the temperature? How do people feel?” like, “Have you have you considered that?” And I think, you know, oftentimes, I find that our clients, leading organizations aren't really seeing how important building that trust and making that space for giving a little space for feelings and, and building, you know, empathy and understanding of like, what they're bringing into their organization that maybe hasn't confronted it before, or that maybe has, like, a history where it, you know, things didn't go very well, or, you know, that sort of like, really giving space to learning and, and being together and, you know, whatever it taking, getting a setback, and then moving forward, you know, whatever you want to call it, like giving some space for the dynamics of what it is to work on your organizational culture, on your, your policies on thinking about how people are in relation with each other in, in an organization is, I would consider and granted, I haven't been part of any major organizing of marches or anything like that beyond like, you know, college scale. It's similar to activism, right? It's similar to doing change on local and national, and even international scales. It's you got to build those relationships, you got to trust you had to see where are things that can be pushed, where things that can be healed, that need to be healed, that need to be addressed, before making sweeping changes, or as you're making sweeping changes. 

Rohan  37:20

Right, right. Right, exactly. And like, there's always room, in my opinion, for rapid response, direct action, there's always room for that. But for me, I only have capacity to do that if I am working with a team that I have really built long-term trust with, I've really been in community with, my watch where I'm like, “Okay, we're getting this done in seven or eight days, like the end of August was Asians action.” That was done in literally like, the group chat was started, I think, like eight days before the actual action itself. So like everyone in that chat, it's like we've all been organizing together. We've all seen each other on the ground, we all know each other. Like it was so quick and easy to get that done, because we trust each other. And we know what that trust is. And your statement is believed. It reminded me of Deepa Iyer’s social change ecosystem map, because I feel like there's this really weird white mythology around activism and organizing that assumes that it's always this angry, dangerous march that will end in damage property and, you know, fire and brimstone and, you know, this is part of the work too. I mean, I'm sure for people who did productions, not that the bow but but like, like, but, you know, when I started to really understand Deepa Iyer’s map and look at how there's weavers, there's frontline responders, they're storytellers, there's healer, and caregivers, you know, there are so many ways to do the work. That is also intersectional. There's so many ways to reimagine the work that is based on your capacity and is based on your joy. So you know, I always am trying to remind people, if you don't take joy in marching, don't march, you can do something else. You know, you can either donate books to some community that needs literature access, or you can do the phone calls, write your congress, there are so many ways to do this work. 

Alexis  39:42

You know, buried in what you're saying is also just this concept that like, sometimes I feel like I will see reactions to a number of different world events, and then suddenly the news will latch on and look at a reaction such as you know, organizing a march so fast and look on with absolutely befuddled, like :how did this happen so fast? It just kind of like sprung out of nowhere!” And it's like, “no, it didn't spring out of nowhere, it sprung out of coalition-building out of relationship-building. For years beforehand, this stuff has been ready and has been practiced, it has been waiting in the wings. And so it is that coalition-building that enables that fast action.

Rohan  40:34

Right, exactly. And, you know, things like this podcast is part of, you know, that community-building, that seed-planting, that when there is another spike or when there is some that requires a fast reaction, you know, these connections are already made. And this is something I tried to realize is kind of becoming one of my top priorities. Just like as an individual, so like, maybe I've read too much Octavia Butler and dystopic science fiction future to seem so true. Octavia Butler, please read more. Looking at the collapse of the US empires, seeing, really in slow-mo real-time, the collapse of capitalism. And understanding that, you know, this colonial state, this colonial white society, this invasion society was never rooted in anything sustainable. So you see these catastrophes that are literally built by capitalism, you see how the horrible invasion of Afghanistan has resulted in this catastrophe. You see how corporations have been stripping Haiti of land resources, and the mining which has contributed to more extreme earthquakes. And now you see these influx of, you know, refugees from both countries trying to come to this stolen land, only to find out that, you know, the white colonial state is unwilling to share, even though it's kind of like, well, you made this mess, so I don't understand. So for me, it's like, it's so much more crucial right now. But it's hard to build these connections across communities. Because as we see the collapse of the empire, it's so much more important that we as oppressed and marginalized communities, as people who are anti -acist, we have to learn how to take care of each other, and build those relations. So that when there's an emergency, we can take care of each other as quickly as possible.

Alexis  42:58

I've recently seen a meme going around my friends on Facebook. That's like, why is it that when people think about societal collapse, they hoard guns, when they should be hoarding friends, when they should be building community, when they should be investing in local structures that can help each other.

Rohan  43:21

Right, right, exactly. Like, I remember, recently, I came across the community garden. And it was right after the devastation of Ida. And folks were kind of like, going through and seeing what the damage was the garden. And it was just so beautiful, that I walked in as a total stranger, and they're just like, “Oh, do you want grapes? Do you want this? Do you want that?” I was having a conversation with one of them. And he was kind of like, you know, everyone seems to be kind of like, out for themselves. And I'm thinking like, “what you did to me just now is the kind of community care that we're going to need down the line.” Because, you know, I got that food without having to engage in capitalism. That means that someone else can get food without these capitalist structures, you know? 

Alexis  44:12

Yeah, I'm currently also reading Rebecca Solnit, “A Paradise Built in Hell,” that talks about a lot of these themes and how like, we have an amazing capacity to help each other out if we harness it. 

Rohan  44:23

Exactly, exactly. And that is, I'm going to borrow language from my good friend, Sole Yu, she's also another organizer on the west coast. So they you use this term called political imagination. And when she said that, I was like, “Oh, like this is something I really, really like resonate with because, you know, on the ground with the Blasian March, it's like, not only are we countering white narratives about you know, Black/Asian tension, of Black/Asian relations. We're also out to-” Hear the ambulance. I will wait.

Linet  45:07

The joys of a city. And that's okay. I mean, we're also in a pandemic. We're not in a recording studio. So it's children, cats, dogs. 

Rohan  45:25

Large studs in the ceiling. It's fine. Okay, I think. Okay. Oh, okay. All right. So my good friends, Sole Yu, she is a political educator on the West Coast. She uses this term called political imagination. And I really resonated with her language. Because, you know, on the ground for the Blasian March, it's not only are we trying to counter, you know, white mythology about Black/Asian relations, we're also providing a new way of thinking, or at least hoping people can start to have a new political imagination about what is possible, and about what has already happened between our communities. So for us, on the back end, it's fundraising for you know, the food, it's fundraising for artists and speakers. It's also collaborative with other organizations to provide free PPE, free menstrual care, free contraception, also providing housing resources. And because we imagine, or we hope to see at present all this as free to the community, I hope that this will help build a new imagination of yes, it's possible for all these things to be free.

Alexis  46:44

On this podcast, we've talked a lot about how sometimes there are myths and falsehoods that serve to divide folks by race, religion, ethnicity, age, etc. What kinds of falsehoods do you see out there that try to prevent inter-community solidarity? And how do we counter those myths?

Rohan  47:05

Hmm, yeah, definitely. Earlier this year, you know, how in the media, there were a lot of anti-Asian hate crimes that were only emphasized when the perpetrator was Black. And this emphasized the white mythology that, you know, Black people are responsible for these hate crimes and this violence. But then when you see, you know, the reports coming out, I remember, I think one of the earliest ones to be released was the Virulent Hate Project at University of Michigan. And they found that among, you know, incidents of anti-Asian violence, where race was confirmed, I think was like 89.6% of the perpetrators were white. And these facts, this data, these stories, were not being amplified in white media and white narratives. So for me on the ground, it's the experience of these constantly. I'm constantly being forced to counter this white mythology, with constant truth, that has been one of the most frustrating falsehoods and story artists, because then it creates a very difficult space, where sometimes I feel like starting all over, because, you know, as soon as we make a step forward, all of a sudden, this narrative comes out. This mythology is emphasized. And then it's like, we go back to square one about “Okay, let's start at the very beginning. This is one of the few incidents this is not, this emphasizes white mythology around Black people, you know, the assumption that Black people are violent or whatever.” I think one mythology that is due to erasure, I would say, is that Black/Asian solidarity is something new, African and Asian relationships, African and Asian trade, commerce, exchange of art, wealth, religion, that is an ancient practice well, before the Europeans even realized the Earth was round. So I am always trying to remind people that there’s centuries-long documentation, there are Chinese emperors who were trading with Africa, there was the Hindustan empires training with African empires, and here on Turtle Island, our collective resistance began as soon as the invasion started. So I'm thinking about Frederick Douglass who advocated for Asian immigration. I'm thinking about huge icons during the Civil Rights era like Grace Lee Boggs, a Chinese American, and her Black husband, James. I'm thinking of Bayard Rustin, who studied Gandhi and techniques of civil disobedience and incorporated that into the Civil Rights Movement. I also have to acknowledge, you know, queer icons, like Bayard Rustin, but also like Kiyoshi Kuromiya, who was an openly gay Japanese American who marched with King on Selma, and in 1970, was the only openly gay panel member at the Black Panther Party convention. So like this, especially in 2021, there are so many people I came across who had the white mythology, so ingrained, that there is no such thing as Black/Asian solidarity, and that they were trying so hard to reinvent the wheel. And when it's like, sometimes tiny need to sit and read a few books, or ygo to a lecture and understand that there is so much recorded history of the solidarity work. And this is a beautiful way to engage with our elders, it's a beautiful way to engage with our ancestors. And it's something that we will have to continue to do until we have found true liberation.

Linet  51:26

Talking about narratives, right? And taking, you know, whatever major news outlets spin on a story as the fact write the headline is meant to inspire an emotion, whatever, whatever it is, it's meant to, to force you to click to want to click to want to know what happened. It's so easy to be misleading, right? You know, even on coverage of of trials, right? Or the images, you know, the classic one, images of you know, when Black people are killed, for example, when indigenous people are killed. Oh, you know, you know, they only have like a mug shot. Yeah, right. That person had a life, right? You know, or they're like, well, so and so as a drug user. So then they deserve that. Right? Like, no, um, yeah, that divisive narrative, it even, I remember seeing, I don't remember when it was during the pandemic, but it was like, it was something like “Millennials think that hair parts, you know, on the side are passe” or something, it was just like, it was a dig between, like Millennials and Gen X-ers. And like, I just like, I was like, seriously like, it? Why, like the erasure, right, I grew up with different cartoons. And they did, I grew up knowing a time when, you know, there wasn't Internet, and, yeah, okay. But like, that doesn't mean that, you know, my hair part is going to prevent me from, from talking to, to someone else, or that we have so little in common, you know, it just says artificial ideas of how different we are. And I think, you know, one of the things that, that I've found in this work that we do, is that the pushback of like, you know, the kind of the colorblind pushback of like, if we're taught to look at how different we are, then we can never possibly work together, right? We can never be in relationship with each other and get over yourself. Like, you know, as, as like a scientist, there is more genetic difference, like, like actually encoded in our DNA genetic difference between everybody in one block than there is between like two people of different races, like there's just, it's a non-reality, right? It's not true, that we are too different to empathize with each other struggles, to connect, to see each other's humanity. Of course, we all have different lives. Of course, we all had different upbringings, life experiences, we were treated differently because of who we are, what we look like, what we do, what we don't do, how we sound even what we can and what we can't do, how we move like all of those things, like even you mentioning like on a classical musician, that's like, you know, somebody's going to peg you for some stereotype on that, right, alone. And these are differences, but like, they are differences that, and I know it's gonna sound so totally like some sort of greeting card but it's their differences that make the richness of life, right? It's like the the different comfort foods that we have, the different languages, music, like whether we had no parents or chosen families or you know what values we have. And those are all the richness that we have and seeing the common humanity, seeing the common, you know, common struggles, and love and joy is, I think it's, that's where the power is, right?

Rohan  55:17

Right, exactly, like there is so much power in our differences, there's, I mean, you look at a beautiful rug of beautiful weaving, every thread could be a different color, every thread could be a different size. They all as individuals still contribute to the beautiful rug or every brushstroke on a painting, it can be a different color and different whatever. And it's still confused to a beautiful painting. And I think for me, it's like, bringing together so many different communities means that they bring together so many different experiences. And that is really, where so much growth is possible. I remember talking on a panel one time and you know, lots of folks just because of, you know, white narratives, white mythology, the erasure of the Asian American experience on the stolen lands are very unfamiliar with the extreme violence Asian Americans and Asian immigrants have experienced, you know, so when I was talking about lynchings of Chinese immigrants at the LA Chinatown massacre, and people were like, “I had no idea that happened. Like I had no idea that that is Asian American history.” And that's a very difficult part of Asian American history. But you see how, even through our unique experiences, we still have parallel struggles within this stolen land within the colonial states. 

Alexis  57:00

What would you like to share with our listeners on how to build relationships between us, and coalitions, and be part of the activism to make change?

Rohan  57:11

Yeah, I would definitely say once again, going to reflect what my safety lead says, “work at the pace of trust, not the pace of hate,” I'm going to add on-  the work will always be there. So do not rush. I know we live in a capitalist state where we are so trained to expect immediacy, you're expected to have the product within like 24 hours, but like, the work is still there, the work, until we can abolish the colonial state and do something better, the work will still be there. So no need to rush. I would also say, working on solidarity means there has to be a lot of internal work a lot of internal re-education, on not just what is my experience, but what is someone else's experience. If that means I have to spend a weekend watching the PBS Docu-series “Asian Americans,” as a mono-racial Black person, I have to do that to better understand what is the Asian American experience on the stolen land. And how does that story intersect with mine? Reflecting back on Deepa Iyer’s map of change ecosystem. I think what's really, really important is understanding that there is no one way to do this work. There is no one way to organize, following Grace Lee Boggs, we have to reimagine everything, we can reimagine the work. And so I definitely ask, putting joy in the work is so crucial. Putting your talents in the work is so crucial. So like right now. Not only in New York, but also there's a sibling, Black Asian trans power rally happening in LA. Also in New Haven. The LA team because they're very involved in the art world, they're very trying to incorporate visual art in the space. I think that's amazing. That's beautiful. That's incredible. You know, I'm a performing artist. So a lot of my actions will have performing arts incorporated into it to hopefully bring out new stories or help folks be inspired to re-imagine or understand differently, a Black or an Asian experience. I think one of the most important things for me personally that I would recommend to folks is to learn your history and learn your history outside of the colonial state lens. Learn your history outside the white gaze, I am constantly referring back to the Philippine independence fighter Jose Rizal, who said “No history, no self; know history, know self. So the first “no historym no self” is “N-O” history, “N-O” self. And then the second line is “K-N-O-W” history, “K-N-O-W self. I honestly think when you look at your history and route the work in the history, the intersectional feminist history, I think there's so much power there as much power and recognizing that you are one of many heroes, you are one among generation after generation of resistance fighters. And there's lot of power and understanding that truth about yourself. 

Alexis  1:00:55

This is where we ask you for shoutouts can you share with us whoever you want to amplify whatever projects you're working on people you want to thank? 

Rohan  1:01:08

Oh, wow. Um, let's see, I forgot to give us a shameless plug for the place and…

Alexis  1:01:16

Always plug!

Rohan  1:01:17

I'm gonna give a shout-out to Lee Painter-Kim. Lee is an amazing organizer on the West Coast who I am collaborating with for the LA action. I just want to give a shout-out to the New Haven contingent as well, as I give a shout-out to Sunehra Suhba. They are spearheading the New Haven Black, Asian trans power rally action. So I am just going to shout out to them. I will also give a shout-out to everyone who's been on the ground for the very beginning. Robin Ayers, Kalaya'an Mendoza… oh, yeah, to say people, I just let's go on and on. I'm gonna stop there if I lose control. Everyone who's been here from the very, very beginning, and has not wavered in the support. Thank you all so much. This was supposed to be a very, very small, one-time action and the Blasian March is this thing, whatever it is right now.

Alexis  1:02:26

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your story today with us. It's been a real pleasure having you as we knew it would be because you're excellent.

Linet  1:02:35

Thank you so much, Rohan. That was really special.

Seth  1:02:41

Thanks for listening. You can find more information and donate at unconsciousbiasproject.org. Dr. Linet Mera, she/her, and Alexis Krohn, she/her, are your hosts. Seth Boeckman, he/they, is your editor. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and follow us. We can be found on Facebook at Unconscious Bias Project, Twitter at UBP_stem, LinkedIn, Instagram, or join our mailing list. UBP is a fiscally sponsored project of the Social Good Fund, a tax-deductible 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. If you wish to sponsor us, please contact us in the contact us tab at unconsciousbiasproject.org.