Published on: Oct 18, 2020

In this episode, we talk to Jessica Ayden Li, who’s a social justice activist leadership coach and nonprofit consultant. We talked about everything from how she got to starting Healing Equity United. Some of her work around culturally specific training and culturally specific language and how that’s so important when reaching different communities. We talked about gender-based violence racism and xenophobia towards Asians and Asian Americans. We talked about the intersection of Asian Americans that are also people of color. We also talked about how important it is to come together even though we have our categories and how we can cross our categories to make changes with each other.

Healing Equity United
Jessica Ayden Li
IG: @jessaydenli and @healingequityunited

Interested in the Christopher Emdin books mentioned?
For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood… and the Rest of Y'all Too
Empire of Care

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Transcript

Linet  00:00

Unconscious Bias Project. In this episode, we talked to Jessica Ayden Li, who's a social justice activist, leadership coach, and non-profit consultant. We talked about everything from how she got to starting Healing Equity United. Some of her work around culturally specific training and culturally specific language and how that's important when reaching different communities. We talked about gender-based violence, racism, and xenophobia towards Asians, Asian-Americans. We talked about the intersection of Asian-Americans, that are also people of color. Folks sometimes forget about Pacific-Islanders. We also talked about how important it is to come together, even though we have our categories, we can cross our categories to make change with each other. Hi, everyone, this was Linet Mera, the executive director of the Unconscious Bias Project and your host for today's podcast. Jessica Ayden Li, who is a social justice activist, leadership coach, and nonprofit consultant. Her background is in working to end gender-based violence, cultivating cultures of inclusion, and belonging at non-profits, and creating social impact through developing leaders within communities of color. You can find her work at Healing Equity United, and that's at www.healingequityunited.com. And to learn more about Jess herself, check out her personal page at www.jessayden.com. Well, welcome, Jess, and thank you so much for chatting with me today.

Jessica  01:48

Good to be on this podcast today.

Linet  01:50

I want to know about how you came to developing Healing Equity United? Like, what's your story? What's your path there?

Jessica  01:57

Yeah, that's uh, that's a great question. So I think, you know, it wasn't something that I'd always thought about doing. I didn't grow up thinking I was going to work on diversity, equity inclusion issues. I am a first-generation immigrant who came to the U.S. when I was four and grew up in New York City. And I had always wanted to work in the non-profit sector. And when I moved out to the Bay Area a couple years ago, to be the executive director of a non-profit organization that provides shelter and transitional housing to women who are survivors of sex trafficking, I realized that whenever I went to meetings with other executive directors, I was often the only person of color in the room, and or sometimes the only woman of color. 

Linet  02:40

Wow.

Jessica  02:41

It wasn't something that I expected, you know, given the diversity and of the Bay Area of California, and you know, how liberal culture is of that city, I, you know, didn't expect to be in a room full of predominantly white women, all of whom were, you know, talking about how do we serve our communities and, and just looking at, you know, the executive level positions and management positions, I began to really see that there weren't people who were in those positions that actually represented the communities that they were serving. And, you know, working in the non-profit sector in the Bay Area is a privilege in a lot of ways. Uhm, Because it, it doesn't pay a lot. And what I saw was that a lot of people who are running these organizations had been in the city for a long time and didn't exactly experience some of the challenges that younger people were going through, or that communities of color were going through. And so I, you know, had a lot of different conversations that were quite challenging for me as an Asian-American, including having to really explain that, you know, just because you don't see Asian-Americans on the streets in the Tenderloin doesn't mean that we don't have homeless people in our community, or that immigrants, survivors of sex trafficking also need to be housed because they don't always all go back to their country, and that we need to really think about how are we going to be inclusive, and equitable? And what does it really mean to represent the communities that we're serving in our organizations?

Linet  04:14

Yeah, yeah. So what I'm hearing is, you know, they were a groups of people that were really invested in solving a problem, but they weren't really, they were only solving the problem based on their experience, but not necessarily based on the experience of the people they're trying to serve, or without really taking into account their perspective or who they were. Is that right?

Jessica  04:34

Yeah, I think that you know, it's we're all well-meaning, well-intentioned people in the non-profit sector, but oftentimes when we don't have full representation in diversity and inclusion and actually have a culture within our organization that celebrates inclusion that is willing to have those hard conversations and  we're always going to be leaving someone out. And so they're starting healing equity united, my colleague who's based in Washington, DC, and I both saw that there was a need to really help, especially mainstream organizations create that culture. Because it's not just about one training, no one training to trainings isn't going to change people's biases or the way they think about things. And in our sector, we are built and rewarded for...for having systems and structures in place that naturally reinforces hierarchy and keeps people privileged at the top, and unless we begin to think about things differently, then we're always going to be leaving marginalized communities out.

Linet  05:33

Yeah, and what you're saying absolutely echoes our approach at UBP too. We try to, you know, emphasize to people that you can't just take one training, apply one tool one time, and then you're done. It's like an ongoing process and if you're interested in you know, being more equitable or inclusive in your services, for example, for business to business or business to consumer, business to client businesses, then they should really also be looking inwards at how are you doing inside the company? How is organization doing? How are people you know, tackling diversity, equity and inclusion? Or is it just, you know, Why they not talking about it? Like, that's all very important. So that's...that's so cool that you have a similar approach. I'm curious about your partner, Fiona. So she was in DC, or is in DC, and you are in the in the Bay Area? Where...Where did you meet? How did you decide to work on this, you know, extremely important, and I'm so glad you exist in this space, organization.

Jessica  06:28

Yeah. So Fiona and I met about 10 years ago, when I was the executive director at a domestic violence organization in the Washington, DC metropolitan area. And she is a black woman. And she also experienced a lot of challenges, you know, working in a white, predominantly white space as a black woman. And both of our backgrounds are on gender-based violence. And so she was on on my board. And then we brought her on to the staff, she and I just been working to dismantle systems of oppression throughout our careers. And even when we were both at the domestic violence organization, because one of the things though, growing up on the East-Coast that's very different from right here in California, is that we constantly have to convince people in cities where Asian-Americans aren't, there aren't a lot of us there, that there are actually issues in our community, like domestic violence, like sexual assault, like trafficking, and that we actually need funding and support so that we can support our communities. And so more by coming together, you know, she and I always had to do different types of training around cultural humility. We talked to other larger mainstream organizations about, for example, like some of the stigmas that exist in our community around therapy, or even coming out and saying that you're a survivor of rape or child sexual abuse, and what does that actually mean? And why is it that our, the mainstream orgs are not seeing those survivors and so naturally, because we were providing technical assistance and training to the other organizations, she and I had a natural way of just working with each other. And even though you know, we...we've known each other for a long time, you know, when I moved out here, we stayed in touch, we both kind of were on this path to wanting to start our own practice, and decided to partner together rather than compete.

Linet  08:17

That's amazing. That's a really great story. And for people out there that don't know, what is the mainstream organization?

Jessica  08:25

Uh, mainstream organization is that organization that serves the community and isn't culturally specific. And so, you know, even though all organizations are technically supposed to serve all types of communities, right, because we don't discriminate in terms of like, who calls us there are culturally specific organizations who specialize in serving that community. And so for example, in Washington, DC, we ran our organization specifically to serve the Asian, Pacific-Islander immigrant community. And so myself and the staff were all trained, and we're all from most of us are from those communities. So we're able to actually understand what it's like to be a survivor from our own community. We know the resources, we have the language skills on staff, in order to serve our community, whereas mainstream organizations try to serve the larger population.

Linet  09:19

 Based with your work with Fiona...How do you split it? Is she still in DC? Does she do work in DC? and you do work in the West-Coast? 

Jessica  09:26

So we do, we work together. And there are certain things about her skill set that's different from mine. And so we kind of bounce off of each other. So for a lot of our consulting projects, where we actually travel to do retreats, or we work with organizations to shift that culture, we go there together. And so we'll go to those projects and we will host a retreat together. We'll design the curriculum together. But then there are certain elements like, I'm better at the operation side. She's actually like the facilitation and...and talking to our clients about what the day would be like, so we kind of work off of each other's strengths. But then if it's really tiny projects, for example, if we had a small project here in the Bay Area that didn't require a full-day retreats that are, you know, over a year long project, I would handle that, but I would keep her informed. Part of the reason I think it's actually great that we're based on different coasts is because we have bi-coastal perspectives of what's actually happening. And so we're able to actually, like, use some of knowledges, to our advantage to0.

Linet  10:30

Unconscious Bias Project is still relatively new in the non-profit world. We're only like three years old. But definitely, there's a lot of crosstalk. And it definitely happens on both coasts is sort of where all the hubs are the way I see it. 

Jessica  10:42

Right.

Linet  10:43

Yeah. And I just realized from us talking, and I was like, "Okay...May Shoe may," it's mainstream. I'm just, I think it just like the sound quality is just a tiny bit fuzzy. And so I apologize for that. But I'm glad we talked about culturally-specific organizations, I don't think a lot of people understand what that means or why that is important. So, I'm glad we talked about that piece.

Jessica  11:06

Culturally-specific organizations are sort of like a gem in a lot of our communities. Where, you know, it's really hard for someone to break into a community that they don't know, right to serve a community or to understand the underlying cultural practices of that community. And without, you know, actually being in that community. And so the culturally-specific orgs tend to be able to take care of some of those challenges, because they are within those communities. That's who they are.

Linet  11:33

For my experience, and I sort of grew a little bit all over the world. So I've never quite belonged anywhere, but also, also wanted to belong everywhere. It is I just know that feeling of like meeting somebody who has had like an international experience, or they're from Colombia, or they're from any of the places where I've lived like France or Nigeria, and you feel that like instant bond, like, "Oh, yeah. You're...you're my people like you, you understand what I'm going to talk about." So I'm sure that makes a sort of the big hurdle of talking about, you know, really difficult subjects like sexual violence, rape, sex trafficking, all of those things so much easier, because you know, that, you know, this, this person gets it, that is really special. Yeah. 

Jessica  12:14

Right, and then also, you know, language is also a big issue, right, in terms of...

Linet  12:18

Absolutely. 

Jessica  12:19

HowYou translate or don't translate certain things. And when I first started working in the domestic violence movement, I didn't realize that in Cantonese, we don't have "intimate partner violence", like as a word, So"It's family violence." So, when you say family violence, right, like so if you say intimate you, if you try to translate, "intimate partner violence" through like Google Translate, it's not really gonna necessarily resonate with the person you're trying to talk to, right. So even things like that, and knowing those little nuances is really helpful. Working with communities of color. 

Linet  12:53

Oh.  That's really true. Yeah, definitely, like the specific language or what's commonly used as terms is also really important. I know, from when I was a kid. As I lived in...So when I lived in a few different countries, and at some different points, I was back in Colombia, as I was growing up as a teenager, you know, there's always an awkward time when you're starting to learn about your body from school, but you don't talk about it at home. And like, all the different sort of terminology that you hear at school is really clinical versus like what you hear like in the classroom versus like, you know, you're not going to say those words to your parents and whatnot. And so the word for "molesting" in Spanish is the same word that you'd use to say "bothering". Oh, wow. So like, so it's like, you know, someone is bothering me is the same phrase you'd use for someone that's molesting me. Like that's, that's a huge difference.

Jessica  13:46

It is. Yeah.

Linet  13:48

But yes, languages. Absolutely. I actually really love language learning and understanding cultures and different ways people express themselves and just like the nuances like even as light-hearted as jokes, there as intense as conversations about sexual violence are just so different, so unique in each culture, and each language and in each language and like subcultures, right? So you wouldn't use the same terminology in Mexico as you would use in Colombia or Spain. That can be really, very specific. Back to Healing Equity United, I've seen some of your, your webinars, and I love the focus on non-profit leaders through you, you're running these retreats, you're running like, you know engagements over long periods of time. Are you always focused on non-profit leaders? How did you get to the mission of Healing Equity United and especially in the work around non-profit leadership? 

Jessica  14:36

We define leadership a little bit differently. For us, it's not a position of like leadership, it could be you know, a grassroots activist right, who's like knocking on doors, asking people to vote or, just so we're looking at leadership differently in that we everyone is a leader and everyone can be a leader, regardless of whether you're an executive director or not. And I think part of the reason that we...we focus on that is because we really believe that if we are going to level the playing field, then we really need everyone to be able to be okay with stepping into being who a leader is, and exhibiting some of those qualities. And so for us, you know, like we have changed, you know, people who are frontline workers, case managers, coordinators, and we believe that they can lead in their team, they may not be the executive director, they may not have the same types of uh.. decisions that someone who's an ED would be held accountable for, but there are certain things that they can do that would push the agenda of like equity and inclusion and belonging forward. And oftentimes, when we look in the sector and organizations, like people of color, people from marginalized groups are not at the top, right. And so if we're really going to be looking at like building true leadership than we need to be inclusive of people who are on their front lines as well.

Linet  16:00

I'm curious how you measure achieving goals or people feeling like they're achieving goals around diversity, equity and inclusion through your programs?

Jessica  16:09

You know, one of the things that I think is really hard is, you know, how, when we're a nonprofit, and we have to write grant reports, like and quantifying, you know, like, whether we've achieved our outcomes or not, right, yeah. So it's really hard to measure, like, what is a number that's going to attach to how far you've moved along the needle towards being inclusive? Right. And so for us, you know, the measures of success, if you were to call it, you know, in the grant world would be, Have you shifted in the way of how you think, are you more self aware? Are there certain things that you will take action on the spectrum of, you know, moving from ally to co-conspirator? Like, How far along are you on that spectrum? If it's safe enough for you to do so. And, and so, you know, I can give you an example. We did uh...a training a couple of months ago, and it was in uh...more rural part of the country. And we saw that as we were talking about, you know, things like white fragility, privilege, what communities of color go through, because it was a very rural and white community. There were people who were there who had never really question race, because they didn't grow up with people who were, you know, outside of being white. Yeah, so some of our participants were just crying because for them, they were like, "Oh my gosh, I never knew I had this much privilege", "I never knew what it was like to have a person of color", And in that case, it was myself and Fiona standing in front of me, sharing their stories about discrimination and what it's like to be a person of color. And so for me, I take that as, like, someone who is willing to start that journey of self-awareness. I look at that specific incident as like a success. Because the thing is, you know, we, it's so easy to just go back home and be like, Oh, whatever, it was a training. I don't really need to do anything with this. I don't live in a community of color anyway. But for someone to actually begin to show the emotions, and to really think and question and still actively participate and challenge themselves. Like I see that as a measure of success.

Linet  18:23

So we're gonna take a brief second here to pause for some messages.

Seth  18:31

Hey, everyone, this is Seth, I use he/him pronouns. And I'm one of the audio editors and volunteers here at UBP. The Unconscious Bias Project brings creative, accessible, evidence-based solutions for unintentional bias to academic, technological, governmental organizations, and beyond. We sustained a welcoming home for inquisitive and creative minds, and encourage a growth mindset, working by the model "0% guilt, 100% empowerment". Please subscribe or follow our Facebook and Instagram for the latest in events and how you can learn more and be involved. Also, take a moment and check out our guest's website and learn more. Look for that information in the description section of your podcast or on our website.

Linet  19:26

So, some of the folks that we've had invited so far have experienced some form of discrimination. Have you experienced any of this yourself? Or any of your like loved ones, or like really good friends?

Jessica  19:40

I have been fortunate during this pandemic to not have had personal physical experience with discrimination or xenophobia, that I've also been home a lot and when I do venture out I primarily go to Asian-American neighborhoods. I don't really go out, so I think that's part of the reason why I've just, I've been spared some of it, but you know, on an emotional and psychological, you know, perspective, like I've definitely been impacted by the things that are, you know, see that what I'm seeing on social media and hearing online. I've definitely heard friends who've had it, who've experienced that, you know, some, some of them, you know, it's outright blatant hate. And yeah, others, you know, as people of color, sometimes you're like, "Wait, was that, was that something?" Or, you know, was there? "Did they really do that? Because I'm Asian?" Or, you know, so. So sometimes, like, we don't know, right? Because yeah, it's macro, microaggressions, or it's not right. So it could be any of those things. But I've definitely had friends who have had those experiences.

Linet  20:42

That's unfortunate. And I'm sorry for your friends. And I'm glad you haven't experienced anything, anything personally, during this time. Not that you haven't experienced any of this stuff ever. But it's really awful. In actually an email, I just had to write someone, I was explaining to them our campaign, why we were talking about this stuff, why we we wanted to give people you know, just sort of practical tools to do something about it. In the every day, somebody wrote back, and I love them with all my heart. They're like, "It's such great work that you're doing to help people that are experiencing mild racism." ...Like, what? Yeah. Like, I did my best not to write a treaties, but I did, you know, talk about, okay, when, like, just stereotype threat is really harmful. What do you know, microaggressions, macroaggressions like what are they like symptomatic of? What they can lead down to, just like the lasting effects that they they have, you know, and so, so I had to, I had to write this email to somebody, like real respect, and then like, I really want you know, I was really hoping you would understand this point, you know, them being a fellow Latina. I think that's, that's one of the hard things that people don't understand, at least what we try to tell people about is, you know, just because Asians and Asian-Americans have been under this, like "model minority", stereotype, doesn't mean that wasn't hurtful. Doesn't mean that, you know, there weren't these sorts of things already, below the surface that are now just like really coming out really strongly.

Jessica  22:18

I do think that you know, that the story that you shared about the email that you were writing, I do think that that's something that we need to talk about as communities of color, because I know that there, I've been seeing different articles, online, attacks by, you know, communities of color on each other. This is definitely not like an isolated incident in that, you know, just like we need to talk about anti-blackness in the Asian-American community, we also need to talk about anti-Asian racism in other communities of color. And I, I've definitely heard some of my friends who are experiencing some of these, you know, acts of discrimination or xenophobia, it is, it is not just, you know, one community or one right, it's like they're getting this from other communities of color as well. So I definitely think that, you know, we need to have conversations about like, what divided our communities in the first place and how model minority that myth was used purposely to separate us and and use in order to keep you know, the white sis man in power, right. And if we're really going to create inclusive and equitable society, then we need to have conversations about how we all can work together to achieve that.

Linet  23:27

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the, I'm sure you've you've read this book uh... "For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood... and the Rest of Y'all Too."

Jessica  23:27

I don't think I've read that one yet.

Linet  23:29

I'm sure like a lot of our readings like overlap in the in the messages, but one of the points that I really like from from the author, and I'm gonna have to look it up so I can can say the author's name on the podcast. And is the we get split up. We as in like, communities of color, or communities that have been underrepresented or oppressed or, you know, push down for different reasons, we all get split look, well, the black experience is not the same as the Native American experience is not the same as the...yeah, our experiences are different. But at the core, we're still the same systems of oppression, it's the same systems of power dynamics, it's the same systems of like cultural erasure, but on that subject of bias against other like communities of color, for example, within Asian communities or like Latino communities having bias against Asian communities. You've told me about this. And I want you to, to say a little more of a sort of you have in the works around this or... Do you have something in the work around this? For, you know, resources for people that are that want to examine that?

Jessica  24:38

Yeah, so we did a training webinar training recently that looked at what co-conspirators can do to support Asian- Americans who are facing racism during COVID. And it's on our website at healingequityunited.com. If any of your listeners want to download that webinar recording, it's free. And then, we are in the process of holding our most popular training, which we call, "Deconstructing oppression, moving from ally to coconspirator", that will be held in May. It's a two-part training. And it really does help us explore some of our privileges. How do we know when our biases are showing up? And how do we actually go from just being an ally, to actually being an active participant in the process as a co-conspirator? So a couple of the things that we have in our pipeline.

Linet  25:28

that's awesome. That's really cool. So how do people uhm...sign up for the May two-part training?

Jessica  25:34

Yeah, people can go to our website, healing equity united.com, and there is an events page. So you can take a look at some of the workshops that are coming up. If your listeners are a part of organizations that want us to come in and do a more customized training for their organization, we can also do that. We have a list of our most popular, most requested workshops on our website as well. And then we also have a long list of resources on our website for people who are currently doing DEI work, or just beginning, not really sure where to start. So all of that is available on our website. That's really awesome. That's really great.

Linet  26:11

I know, you're not the spokesperson for all Asians and Asian-Americans. But what have you been hearing from your community about, sort of needs around the discrimination, xenophobia that's happening right now?

Jessica  26:25

We're definitely hearing that it's primarily East and Southeast Asians that are being targeted, as people can't tell the difference. Unfortunately, and not that not that it should matter, you know, just that's just what we're hearing in terms of like, who's actually being targeted. We are, you know, also hearing, especially from immigrants, that they're still seen as a perpetual foreigner in this country being, you know, called certain things, is like President calling it, "The Chinese virus." It's like, why, why would you do that? You wouldn't call it, "The Caucasian virus". But you know, it's just, it's just weird, right? We're definitely hearing that they're feeling like perpetual foreigners, we saw that a lot of Asian businesses were already uhm, being targeted, or boycotted, when everything started happening. So this was like, weeks and months before the actual shelter in place in our communities. So those businesses have actually had a longer economic impact from that discrimination period. And then when we started sheltering in place, and so like, no, and Oakland, Chinatown, those businesses were already not seeing people as early as January, you know, 

Linet  27:29

Wow. 

Jessica  27:30

And so the restaurants, the groceries, they're all been hurting for a much longer period of time. And then we're also, you know, hearing from other communities of color, some things that people have talked about is that they're being told by other people of color, that it's not their problem, and that the Asian-Americans need to just figure it out. So there hasn't been as much empathy around it, and it's a struggle for them. And then there's also just some confusion around why are we still seen as perpetual foreigner? Or why is it that people aren't being more responsive to these issues? And, and so I know Governor Newsom issued a statement on like, the racism, right, but not all of the local communities have, even those with larger Asian-American population. Some of the things that I'm also hearing is that like, it feels like our community is left up to defend that discrimination ourselves, it's really hard to do that, you know, and people are, are thinking about, "Well, we've come out for other communities, but other communities don't seem to want to be our allies." So we've seen a little bit of that. Uhm..having to also playing the "Oppression Olympics", every now and then. That's definitely coming out a lot and social media. And then for some of our Southeast Asian communities, you know, they talk about how, you know, they have the same rates of incarceration, and under-education as the black community. And so, so why is it that they're still being told that they're the "model minority"? When they don't even identify with that, and, and there's also, you know, like, when I grew up, I was growing up in New York, you know, I've, I've seen, you know, police brutality in my own community. I've seen officers like put chokeholds on, you know, Asian immigrants, and, you know, these are, these are things that like, resonates with resonate with the black community. I know, for sure, people are wondering, like, "How do we actually pull these communities together so that we can be in solidarity?"

Linet  29:26

What else could we do? Or what could UBP do? How can we help?

Jessica  29:29

Yeah, I think that, you know, maybe pulling together, people from different communities, different community organizers that work on DEI issues, to sort of address the, the unconscious biases that affect all of our communities, right. And so like, you know, it'd be really helpful for example, if you know, you pull people in from like, East Oakland, right, and we can talk about like, how do we address anti-blackness? Right? How do we because, I know that that exists in my community, because I don't think it should be necessarily like, you know, issuing one statement about what's happening with Asian-Americans, but then you know, ignoring like what's happening with gentrification in East Oakland, right? And perpetual pushing out of our, you know, black neighbors, right. So I do think that we need to be able to come together as communities of color and actually work together.

Linet  30:15

Absolutely. What are other projects that you have in the works? And how can we support them? And then after that, before that, do you have any shoutouts you want to give or resources you want people to check out? I feel like you've gave us a ton of resources that we can just dive into on the website.

Jessica  30:30

Yeah, so a big shout out, I know that we've been clapping for our essential workers and health care. But I also want to give a big shout out to everyone else that has to be working at this time, you know, from the person like, stocking shelves at the supermarket, to you know, our postal delivery driver, right, getting us our stuff in the mail. These are often jobs that are held by people of color. Yeah, and they're often forgotten, right. And it's not that they all want to go to work, some of them probably would prefer to stay home, but they may not be able to afford to, if they have sick leave, just take unlimited amounts of sick leave. So I want to give a big shout out to everyone who is working at this time, we definitely see that it is a privilege for those of us who can work from home. Yeah. And then, you know, in terms of, of projects, yeah. If you have organizations that are looking to actually create a culture of of equity and inclusion, and if they're ready to have conversations about it, I'm happy to get on a call with them, do a consultation and see how we might be able to support them.

Linet  31:34

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us and I really look forward to working with you in the future. Thank you.

Jessica  31:41

Thank you so much for inviting me on this Linet. I look forward to working with you as well.

Linet  31:45

Thank you. Oh, and author of, "For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood" is Chris Emdin.

Seth  31:56

Thank you for listening. You can find more information and donate at UnconsciousBiasProject.org Dr. Linet Mera, She/her is your host, Alexis Krohn, She/her and Seth Beckman, He/him are our editing team. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and follow us. We can be found on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, or join our mailing list. UBP is a fiscally-sponsored project of the Social Good Dund, a tax deductible 501c3 nonprofit organization. If you wish to sponsor us, please contact us in the "contact us" tab at UnconsciousBiasProject.org