Episode 17 - Enrico Manalo - Spoken and Unspoken

Published on: Dec 8, 2021

Alexis and Linet got to talk to Enrico Manalo of the All Aces podcast, Intentionally Act Now. We went everywhere from winding career paths, to thinking meta about systems. We talked about conflict resolution. We learned a lot about pro-social silence and organizational silence. It's exciting, really thinking about the purpose of language and conversation and how we bring ourselves towards taking collective action, individual action, and how we start to address systemic change.

And you can Catch the next part of this conversation on All Aces’s Podcast!

Please check out their website and suggestions in this episode:

Enrico’s Facebook
Enrico on Twitter - @AllAcesEnrico
Enrico on Instagram
Enrico on LinkedIn

All Aces Website
All Aces Facebook
All Aces Twitter - @allacesboston
All Aces on Linked In

Resources from this episode:

Jeanne Cleary - Conflict Resolution Lecturer 
Jeff Pugh - Conflict Transformation leader
Shad Helmstetter - What to Say When You Talk to Yourself

Look out for the upcoming podcast collaboration between Enrico and Mario Portugal Ramirez hosted by FLASCO.

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To support our podcast please visit our contributions page.

“If we want to move the ball forward, we have to trust each other.”

Transcript

Linet 00:01

Hey, everybody, today you're in for a treat. Oh my gosh. Spoiler alert, Alexis and I are going to be taking this awesome conversation that we are going to share with you today. With Enrico, we're going to take that to the next level and bring it to AllAces podcast - "Intentionally Act Now," just to give you a preview of what we talked about today, we went everywhere from, you know, winding career paths to thinking meta about systems. We talked about conflict resolution, I learned a lot about prosocial silence, organizational silence, it's really juicy, really exciting, really thinking about sort of the purpose of language and conversation, and how do we bring ourselves towards taking collective action, individual action, and start to address systemic change? So with that, enjoy this podcast with a new go. 

Hi, everyone, hola a todes, this is Linet here (and Alexis), your co-hosts, both she/her, bringing you impactful stories and interviews from our communities and your communities to bring you some of our favorite people tell you about their experiences, viewpoints, and the topics that matter to them the most so that we can all support each other.

Alexis 01:25

So before we kick off, I'd like to tell everyone to go and learn more about the Ohlone people and the current Shellmound protests to protect their life, heritage, and rights. The Unconscious Bias Project is based in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, which is unceded ancestral homeland belonging to the Ramaytush Ohlone and Muwekma Ohlone peoples. Support our work by supporting them, too. Linet, can you introduce us to our awesome guest today?

Linet 01:54

Yeah, everybody please give a warm welcome to Enrico E. Manalo, he/him; he’s Chief of Learner Success at AllAces, Inc. of Boston, and holds a master's degree in conflict resolution. His research focus has been on conflict in teams and work groups, particularly in the areas of diversity, equity, and inclusion and organizational silence. Enico also has over 10 years of experience supporting the growth and development of English language learners around the world. He's also a poet and runs two podcasts. And Enrico is connected to us through our podcast guest and good friend of the project, Dr. Liza Talusan. Enrico, welcome.

Enrico 02:37

Wow. Thank you so so much, Linet and Alexis, and I'm so honored that I am included in your group of some of your favorite people. So incredibly happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Linet 02:51

So Enrico, we met at our “Stop AAPI Hate and Activate” outreach event. And we ended up chatting multiple times, over different ways, about food, travel, languages, your being a Bostonite, and sort of telling you a bit about Oakland and the Bay. And on top of it all, you know, we learn, you know, together, we're both doing the kind of work that impacts diversity, equity inclusion. I've heard a little bit about this, but how did you end up combining sort of poetry and music to somehow get towards conflict resolution and ultimately landing at AllAces? What was that path like?

Enrico 03:33

Oh, well, one, it was a very winding path. Right? So I believe I started out with music. So I was, I took up playing the saxophone when I was about 10 years old. And I was really into it to the point where I actually wanted to go to school for it. But during high school, I also got very, very interested in words, and poetry, and the music that words have, and just really noticing that so much of what we experience in the world as human beings is communicated through text, and words and the sounds of things. And so all of that kind of just got me thinking about my place in the world, how I relate to things. And so I went to school at Emerson College, where I earned a BFA in what's referred to there as Writing, Literature, and Publishing, but to the rest of the world as a creative writing degree. While I was there, I loved Emerson College. It was a great experience. I got to study under two great poetry masters, one of whom was Bill Knott, who unfortunately passed away, and I don't know if people will know this, but in the poetry world Bill Knott was known as something of an iconoclast, I guess. He started his poetry career off by faking his own death before anybody even know knew who he was, he was an amazing human being, not warm and cuddly in the slightest. You know, similar to other creative writing programs, his workshop was really like, “Okay, step one, pour your heart and soul into writing some poems” for whatever week you're supposed to go. You read them out to the class, everybody will have, you know, added all the possible critiques that they could think of, and then you just kind of have to sit there in session, while they tell you to your face, what is not working. And then when you're like a quivering mass of goo, that's when Bill would jump in and reduce you to nothing, and then tell you to do it again, and come back next week, but better, right? So I don't think that was like the healthiest thing ever. But it did lead me, to graduating. And as I was kind of shaking the president of Emerson College's hand, I had the realization that, oh, yeah, there's no such thing as a poetry job. So I better figure out a way to feed myself. That led to getting an ESL certificate. As I was kind of looking for places to apply my newfound skills, I was presented with two choices, I could go to South Korea, where I was aware that as a Filipino, even though I'm Filipino American, I would face a lot of discrimination, a lot of racism. Or I could go to Vietnam, which I knew nothing about. However, it was located on the beach, and the cost of living was amazing compared to what I've been earning. So that's how I ended up there. And while I was there, I learned that rather than really getting into the weeds, of grammar, and syntax, and all that kind of stuff, which I was, but I was also helping people to negotiate the cultural piece, right. So a lot of my students wanted to study here in the US, but they would say things and do things that I knew would not serve them well, in their context, right. So we started kind of working on those cultural pieces. And I found that I really love that. And ultimately, what I like doing is finding those little knots of things and, and picking at them and, you know, on returning from Vietnam after five years, you know, I thought I would write about the 2008 recession, but it just never went away. So I decided to come back and go to law school. Yeah, so law school - but I did not go to law school. And part of this is motivated because while my mother was pregnant, she would refer to me, she and my father would refer to me, as Attorney Manalo, because there are a number of other lawyers in my family. Ironically, the lawyer of my generation was not me, but my cousin Jonas. And I really credit that to our family friend, Dr. Kenneth Sol, who is a student of the great Dr. Morton Deutsch at Teachers College, an early pioneer of the conflict management field. And so Kenneth took me aside and said, Hey, listen, I've known you your whole life. I know a lot of lawyers. I know it's a, it can be a profession that's soul-crushing. I'm just asking you to think what is it that you really want to do, because if you want to help people, as a lawyer, you got to do it through these pretty strictly defined ways, depending on your practice. And I just want you to think, is that you want? I was really honored to be able to attend his workshops. And in doing so I saw a lot of what I was looking for. And so I mentioned that I'd known Kenneth my whole life, like, he's deeply influenced me in so many ways. And so I really credit him with getting me into conflict. And also he fed me my first non-supermarket bread when I was a child, so I learned what good bread was very early on. He was actually really into baking sourdough and yeah, just so so fortunate to have that in my life, you know?

Linet 09:33

Wow, wow, that holy moly, what an incredible moment to just, I kind of I don't think I've ever had somebody been like, have you really thought of this career that you chose? Yeah, wow. Okay. Okay, sorry. It just, continue, this just, this story is incredible.

Enrico 09:57

I mean, you know, a lot of this comes around with - so for much of my life, I kind of felt like I was wandering around. And even now, my colleagues hear me say often, like, “I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.” You know? And in some senses, this is a mantra for me. And I do feel like it helps to keep me humble. You know, because so much of the time of like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know if I understand what I'm hearing. And, you know, a lot of my work and poetry is about those vagaries of the English language that result in us thinking that we understand something, but ultimately, we don't. And it's amazing to me that we don't walk around just - how do we make meaning of things beyond just like, communicating to each other in a series of puns, which would ultimately just not be communication?

Alexis 10:56

What was it that Shaw said? “The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”

Enrico 11:05

It’s so so true.

Alexis 11:09

I have a friend who used to teach, I think at BU, a course, for people who had learned English as a second language as a business language. And her course was just for conversational English. So that - and it was I think it was in the business courses, actually, because there were like, there's language for business as your formal language, but also, you have to schmooze so often, to do the, like, business side. And so she taught people how to basically like, schmooze in English.

Enrico 11:45

That's really funny to me, you know, I had a group of helicopter pilots, who I was working with in Vietnam, and they were attached to like a, what’s it called? PetroVietnam Manpower Training College, you know, like, that's a name that I'm not going to forget is just like, there's, again, just the idea of manpower, you know, I can't help but imagine like, He-Man, you know, transitioning from Prince Adam, when I, whenever I say that phrase, but the pilots that I worked with, they were not interested in the business English that I was there to teach at all. What they were really interested in was, and they straight up asked me, and for whatever reason, you know, they always refer to me as a “teacher,” never by my name. So the request was, “teacher tell us how to talk to women.” And it's like - One, this is not like, an area where I've had an enormous amount of success, like, I'm better than you think so. But, you know, okay, so I was kind of trying to ask them a little bit more like, Okay, well, what kinds of things do you want to say to women? And of course, it was very, like, you know, macho male culture, like kind of stuff that I did not want to teach them. And so again, we took the opportunity to work on some of the cultural pieces, which were like, you know, they asked me a question, which was, no, now that I think about it, it was one of the students was late, and I asked him why. And he said that he was busy. He was late, because he had seen a beautiful woman on the back of a motorcycle and had followed her for several kilometers. Yeah, and I was like, “Okay, first on the docket today is that is super not okay to do in the United States. I don't know if it's okay to do here. Like, I have certain feelings about it. But I just want you to know, in the US, if people see you doing that, that is called stalking, and it is definitely not okay.”

Linet 13:48

That's really critical. I think, you know, there's some things that we forget, and we've talked about this in a few other podcasts, but there's so much unspoken in rules, whether it's like a workplace or it's like different areas of a city or you know, city versus town versus rural, like so many unspoken rules, and ways to interact with people, even things that aren't spoken, or like we were talking about, like following somebody, or like, you know, in rural areas here in the states, like everybody says “hi” to everybody else, from your car, right as you're driving by, it doesn't matter if you don't, if you're not a local, everybody just says hi to the car. Or, you know, in Colombia, like if you were, you know, say you're in like a two-lane road and somebody flashes their lights at you. It's not that your lights aren't on. It's that there's a cop ahead. So they're like warning you that there's going to be a speed trap like you should slow down or you know, whatever.

Alexis 15:00

I've been thinking about that so much, because so much of the like, just how people communicate is so different out here than in Boston?

Enrico 15:10

Yes, yes. I feel this a lot. I think the first time, Alexis, you and I met, we were kind of reflecting on how sarcastic the typical modes of communication can be in New England. And that's something that I'm so used to that I'm a little bit lost out here. I'm like, I don't know how to be, you know, this. So there I go again, like, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.

Alexis 15:38

Half of the reason why I moved out to the Bay in the first place was because I was in Boston, I’m thinking, “I basically have this, like, I'm in a social group where I know what I'm doing. I'm in a job where I know what I'm doing.” And part of moving out here was going, “I'm gonna move somewhere where I don't know what I'm doing for a little while.” Yeah.

Enrico 15:59

Now that makes a lot of sense. I mean, one of the things that continually blows my mind living in California now, is there's so much more space. And I don't just mean that, and I think you brought this up to me, actually, Alexis, right. So the way that, and I hadn't framed it in this way before. But what Alexis said to me, and I remember this pretty clearly, is the East Coast mode of communication is like, we're kind of getting in there to show that we're engaging. And in your observation, that's not how people communicate out here. And that really kind of got me reflecting, you know, and I guess it's been extra difficult because we're in COVID, still, of course, so I don't have as many opportunities to interact with people out and about, but yeah, I did definitely notice that people would wait for me to kind of finish before jumping in and yeah, I mean, I can be long-winded. So… 

Alexis 16:56

It's so different

Linet 16:58

On the topic of languages, like unspoken rules, and all of these different ways that we communicate for each other, with each other, for each other. For our purpose, our like, shared sort of space of, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, racial equity, what is facilitation? What is - What are like conversations actually doing in diversity, equity, and inclusion? Like, what, what are we actually trying to do? What is our actual goal? What makes it good? Or how are you adjusting sort of thinking about conversations? When you start talking about, you know, heavier matters, or you're trying to change somebody's mind? 

Enrico 17:36

For me, I always end up going back to something I learned while becoming a mediator. And I studied under a really brilliant and fantastic mediator named Jean Cleary who was actually based out of Watertown. And for those who are not familiar with the Boston area, Watertown is kind of like it's north of the city, but also west of Cambridge, I believe. Alexis, did I get that right? I'm not great at geography. 

Alexis 18:08

Yep. Yeah, absolutely. 

Enrico 18:10

Thank you. Yeah. So Jean Cleary is, she's so fantastic, and really great at distilling things down. So the thing that she kind of impressed upon me over and over again, is that when it comes to conversation, was, the things that we want to look out for are good pace, good tone, right? And it sounds so simple. But when you're in the heat of the moment, in a mediation, right, that's a simple check that you can do, even if you're highly emotional, like, hey, do we have good pace? Or are my words coming out super fast? Because I'm really emotional, you know, that kind of thing? Do I need to slow down so people can understand what I'm actually saying, or trying to say? My tone, you know, I'm just reacting here, but I'm angry. And how is my voice coming out right now? Is it kind of coming out like an open palm? Or is it coming out like a closed fist or a pointed finger? And these are things that, you know, we're not invited to reflect on all the time. And I think, really, that's simple as it sounds, that's a huge part of the issue. And so when it comes to facilitation, of course, yeah, good pace, good tone, but a facilitated conversation is of course, different than a conversation with a friend. So a conversation with a good friend, he can wander, right? That's kind of what you expect. Of course, you have those more serious conversations, which are more focused for facilitation, it's often a conversation that's hard to have otherwise. Right. And so my job as a facilitator, right, so to make things easier for somebody, is to really make sure We have good pace, and good tone. And when it comes to racial equity, I really find that there's a care element as well, right? So we want to be able to engage in things productively. And that means to try to do whatever we can not to bring harm to replicate it to, to kind of invite it into the conversation in various ways. And this by this, I don't mean to avoid things, right. But we're just trying to be really intentional about what we're doing. Because if we want to move the ball forward, we have to trust each other. You know, we might not have to trust each other in the way that a child trusts a parent, but we have to trust that people are there in good faith, at the very least,

Alexis 20:50

The good faith thing can be so tough sometimes, because there are so many times when you, if you disagree with somebody, that it's easy to kind of go, oh, there can't be any progress with this person, or oh, they're, they don't understand anything at all. Why should I even try? Yeah, why should I even try, you know, they're just X, Y, or Z. One of the difficult things, one of the challenging things for me, that I always try to do, though, is acknowledging what the other person is feeling. Oh, yeah, even if part of my brain is saying, “you have no idea, you…” like, “that is a ridiculous feeling” or something like that, you know, part of my brain might be thinking that, you know, if somebody says, you know, “it's really hard being straight nowadays,” or something like that, and, you know, part of my brain is going, “I can tell you have never tried to be anything other than because trust me, being gay and trans, it's different.” There's still the like, seeing it and going, like, “What makes you say that?” And then they say, “Well, I feel like XYZ, I can't say things anymore. I can't blah, blah, blah”, and then to say, “Okay, I hear you. And I am assuming that you are coming to this conversation in good faith that you are feeling these things. And can I tell you a little bit about what I'm feeling as a gay trans woman,” like, and then trying to… It's tough. 

Enrico 22:25

What I love about that, Alexis, is right there, you are really modeling, how we can humanize one another. Right? So when we are dismissing one another, because of the tone of the voice, or we're feeling offended or something, in some sense, we are actually not seeing the full humanity and complexity of that other person. And to put that another way, that is a way of dehumanizing another person. And I don't think that there are people out there who are like, “Yes, I am, I'm just going to straight-up dehumanize this person in this conversation.” That's not the intention. But that is the impact, right? And we know that impact versus intent, and not owning our stuff often leads to well, more conflict. So, one, it's hard being human. And it's really hard, recognizing one another as human. Like, I think it's one of the biggest challenges in each of our lives. And the areas where we're able to do that are so valuable to us, right. That's friendships, that's really great relationships. That's, you know, all the people that you love and hold dear, that's, that's what all that is.

Alexis 23:41

You said a key word there, too - “relationships.” One of my favorite DEI educators from back in the northeast, she did DEI training in schools. And one of the things she kept coming back to as a mantra was “teaching is relationships.” 

Enrico 24:02

Yeah, I mean, what that kind of sparked for me, Alexis, is I was so lucky in grad school to be able to do a summer program under Professor Jeffrey Pugh at UMass Boston. And the program was called “Conflict Transformation Across Borders.” So it's really involved in like, human migration and actually, Lnet, the challenges that many of the Colombian refugees would face in Ecuador. Right? So fleeing FARC and the paramilitary - Jeff is so fantastic. And we did this exercise on trauma because there were a significant portion of the people coming across the borders illegally. They were carrying a lot of trauma with them. And so we're asked to represent a span of our life where something traumatic had happened in the form of a river. And I remember very clearly that, that Jeff, prefaced this exercise by saying that he really sees his relationship to teaching as this river, right. And so there's his teachers that came before him, and the teachers that came before them. And then there's us who are a little bit downstream, and the people that we are going to influence and was really beautiful, because it was very easy to understand our interconnectedness and how we flow around one another in life. Now, that's something that I carry with me often.

Linet 25:36

I think about this a lot. I mean, definitely current news, Afghanistan, and in what different countries, how different countries are receiving or choosing not to, you know, see, Afghanistan refugees as like, whole people, or they're just like, whoa, we’re just gonna sit here in quarantine, and then we'll figure out what to deal with. Like, it's just, you know, there's very different ways in which people treat each other, especially around conflict, and especially around conflict that's so polarizing. You mentioned the conflict, la violencia, like the start of la violencia. And in, in Colombia, that then, you know, sort of cascaded since words, which are mounted on rivers, and what bodies of water cascaded into, you know, FARC, ELN [NLA, National Liberation Army], like, all of these different groups that just brought so much violence and trauma, and it's, you know, it's affected multiple generations by this point. And it's really interesting, um, you know, sort of, when we, when we left Colombia, you know, it was still it was still pretty violent. I was little, and some areas, right. It's not like, you know, just violence everywhere, you know, this is what people imagined in the news. You're like, oh, just as Colombia is super violent. It's like, No, it's not everywhere. It's not everybody.

Alexis 27:03

Things are complicated. 

Linet 27:05

Yeah, here's our, things are complicated. And I was shielded from this, my parents definitely took the approach of shielding us from reality and life. And, but my parents faced a lot of discrimination abroad, though, in different countries. And, you know, Colombians were thought of with disdain in our neighboring you know, we call them, like sister countries like Venezuela, for example. You know, if you were in Venezuela, as a Colombian, you were looked down upon you're like, “oh, you know, those people that are trying to,” right, the rhetoric we're familiar with, “steal our jobs, you know, steal our women, you know, they're, my land, or” - their views - “and, you know, and rapists, and, you know, all of this, like, violent stuff, and “they don't have anything, they want our resources, they want our money.” And this was back, you know, what, like, 15, 20 years ago that this was like the standard for, you know, how you think about coming people. And then, you know, fast forward to recent years with Chavez dictatorship, and, you know, basically, you know, booting out anybody that wasn't into his specific brand of, let's call it, not actual socialism. It's like, let's just face it, the dictatorship, the fascist dictatorship, but once they left, then, you know, I started hearing it, you know, it's, so forced a lot of people out a lot of Venezuela and, you know, just literally fleeing the country trying to cross these borders, into any other country that they could. And so then you hear Colombians saying the same thing, like always just, you know, oh, there's a rising crime, it's the Venezuelans. Oh, you know, it's, those are probably Venezuelans that are on the street, oh, they're the malandros. Oh, you gotta be careful with the Venezuelans. You gotta you know, and I think it's so it's so, you know, my dad remarked on it, he was like, “Yeah, gosh, you know, this is the exact same thing that Venezuelans were saying about us, like 20 years ago, like can can people not see this?” and just, you know, thinking about conflict resolution, thinking about the work that we do, you know, in sometimes in professional spaces, where there's past trauma, professional spaces where there's, you know, there can be like, intergenerational trauma that's impacting that person's experience at work. You know, and it makes me think of, of all like, the different systems and places where conflict happens are where we, you know, our society, at least in the US has some systems to resolve conflict, and it's just very lacking in that humanization piece right? Like policy law, you know, the prison-industrial complex, like, just even in education talking about, oh, you know, oh, there's special needs. Yeah, I once taught courses, science outreach program called “Science and Health Education Partnerships.” This is based out of UCSF in San Francisco. And we go into the San Francisco Independent School District schools and teach, you know, help their teachers like teach their, you know, units that they're required to teach for science. And we know you can't make it hands-on, make it really fun and engaging. And they're like, oh, you know, “Are you okay doing special needs course?” And I was like, “Yeah, of course, you know, why not?” And so here, I was expecting, you know, people that weren't going to be engaged like students, this is like, a middle school, like students that were, you know, maybe they had, like, an English barrier. That's why I thought, like, wow, maybe there's like an English, you know, barrier or something that was like, “fine, I'm perfectly bilingual, no problem.” And the teacher also set us up a little bit, just like, oh, you know, they just don't want to engage and blah, blah. And we went in there. They were excited to learn, like, they had no problem like, the one kid that missed the first class, and then came to the second class and was like, not at the bench, like not doing the exercise. It was like, “Hey, what's up?” you know, “what's going on?” And he's just like, “I don't understand any of this stuff.” Like, “this stuff doesn't mean anything to me.” And I was like, “oh, no, I bet,” you know, “something about this actually, like, have you, you know, what, we're talking about bacteria.” And so it was like, just thinking about, like, the Latin. So like, the scientific names for different things and pulling the parallel to like, “oh, you actually know that word? That's a Spanish word.” Right? And, you know, and just sort of like connecting, just like, it's not that they’re, you know, truants; it's like, I think the the, the teacher is like, “Oh, they repeated so many,” you know, “this grade multiple times.” And it's like, you know, we haven't seen them as a whole person. I mean, I will definitely say teachers not given enough resources to consider all these facets, but it was the kind of situation where, where, you know, if we can see people as whole people, you know, that have their own, you know, pains and gains and goals and like a rich life right on their own before we meet them, then it's just so it's so different, right? It's just so it just radically changes everything. I mean, what you're talking about, that self-awareness of how we're speaking, that self-awareness of what we're of what we're putting on somebody else, like what are we projecting, what are we expecting, is huge.

Enrico 32:55

Absolutely. In between teaching English in Vietnam, and going to grad school, I had a series of not very glamorous temp jobs, one of which was working at a standardized testing center. Through some of those essays. I've never read the Hunger Games, but I feel like I've got the worst paraphrases of it possible. And now I'm not motivated to return to that at all. But the point that I'm trying to make here is there, I got assigned to a unit that was processing the standardized tests for students with special needs. And like yourself, before I was actually in the work, I was worried that it would, to be blunt, that it was going to be a real drag. But all that is to say, it was an unexpected joy to work on those particular tests to see the care that these special education teachers put into finding ways for their students to not only take, like a take in the content of what they were learning, but to demonstrate that they understood, I dedicated all my attention to those, I really showed up because it's like, yeah, these are, this is a group of people who, they're starting off there, they weren't dealt a great hand to begin with. It's up to them to learn how to play with it. And you know, they really need ways to show that they are smart, intelligent, whole people. They're not just, I don't know, like, sort of vestigial organs in human society. They're, they're part of us, they are us and they deserve to be seen as complete individuals unto themselves.

Alexis 34:55

On that fantastic note, let's go to Break really quickly, where Seth has some announcements. 

BREAK

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Seth 35:56

Hi, everyone, this is Seth and I am one of the audio editors and volunteers here at UBP. The Unconscious Bias Project brings creative, accessible, evidence-based solutions for unintentional bias to academic, technological, governmental organizations, and beyond. We sustain a welcoming home for inquisitive and creative minds and encourage a growth mindset. Working by the model of “0% Guilt, 100% Empowerment.” Please subscribe or follow our Facebook and Instagram for the latest in events and how you can learn more and be involved. Also, take a look and check out our guest's website and learn more. Look for that information in the description section of your podcast or on our website.

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Linet 37:19

It talking a little bit about seeing people as, you know, as opposed to considering somebody as, you know, like a noncentral part of society and noncentral part of who we are, you know, as a community, you know, as a city and nation or just like people on earth. I wanted to ask a little bit about systems, right. So we talked about there's like a tension between, you know, working with individuals and then recognizing that we're sort of within a system that's perpetuating inequities that's like continuing to uphold racism, for example, sexism, ableism, etc, etc. You know, we're working, sort of to undo like, decades, centuries of, you know, cultural norms, you know, intentional inequities, like, baked into policies or even like purposely built freeways, parks, you know, access to, to amenities, all of these different things, you know, there's that real tension between, you know, how do we start making change? And I wanted to plant this, this, plant this question, uh, do you think we'll ever get to free ourselves and each other from these systems that are pervasive?

Enrico 38:47

There's one part of me that really hopes that yes, we will. And there's another part of me that, you know, is still thinking a little bit. And that part of me is thinking of the whole chicken and the egg thing, right? So I forget where I got this from. Somebody was talking about the whole chicken and the egg thing in the context of evolution. And so the answer was, to the question, which came first, “the chicken or the egg?” was “a different chicken, and a different egg.” So even though we have these systems that have longer lifespans than the humans that are embodying them, to relate this back to language, one of the shortcomings of many languages is that we speak in like the present tense, right? But that doesn't change. We use a different one, the progressive tense, but things are changing all the time. You know, whether we want them to or not. So I really see myself as somebody who's being, who's trying to be proactive about influencing that change positively, to try to answer the question. I don't really know if we'll be able to free ourselves from these systems because inevitably, see, the systems that we’re thinking, or happen, are in the past, or a memory, right? It's not like we can ever really see the whole system as it is in real-time, and all the people that are entering it and exiting it. And in some sense, it really reminds me of like how seeing a huge flock of starlings, right, so they're a group. And clearly there's some organizing principle, but it's like this big amorphous thing that's like, moving in all different directions, but all in the same direction all at once. And it's like, if I'm a bird inside all of that, what do I see? I see other birds. And if I'm on the edge, well, then I don't. So I think it's a lot easier for those of us who find ourselves on the edges of the system to kind of see or be motivated to find a way out. Because that's closer, right, than to understand what it is that we can do to kind of influence the direction, because that seems to happen. I don't know, if not from inside, or like a center, something internal to us individually, that we're able to pick up socially. So I'm sorry, if that's not a satisfying answer. But I hope it's clear that this is one that I spent a lot of time thinking about. And I don't know, but I am really enjoying trying to figure it out. Because there are so many amazing people out there who are also trying to figure it out,

Alexis 41:33

I would love to throw an idea at you and see what you think of it, is one of the things that I think about a lot, you know, is gender. And I think about how gender is a social construct, it's a system. And, you know, right now there is a push from the edges to, you know, just say, abolish gender, just gone. And there are certainly days when I feel that way, where I just, you know, scream “gender is bullshit,” and then think how better off we'd be without it entirely. But that's not likely to happen. And there are a lot of good parts about gender. And so one of the things that, you know, I think a lot of folks, especially younger folks are trying to do is not necessarily abolish the system, but try to redirect it so that it's benefiting everyone, and provides freedom and structure at the same time in a way that helps people rather than restricts them. What do you think about that in terms of these other systems as well?

Enrico 42:40

I mean, I think one of the tensions that I've really noticed is, especially in dealing with themes of like, inclusion, there is great need and utility for clarity and understanding in some contexts. And in other contexts, there is a great need for the ability to kind of open things up and be more, I don't know, creative, more intuitive, more, maybe less rigid. And I don't think that we're, our educational system is [not] great at helping us to understand when to use which set of tools and I really think that's to our detriment, right? Because speaking to gender as a social construct, I mean, as an Asian man, I know that I'm not considered to be like a macho manly man, you know, I'm never gonna grow a lush, full beard and, you know, drink a beer while showing off my six-pack or anything like that. That's just not, not me, not who I am. I've struggled for years, because there are times where it's like, “Wow, am I a more feminine man? Am I okay with that, if that's the case?” And I mean, ultimately, what it came down to is, “hey, listen, self, we have to live with us. So you know, we're better off just being who we're feeling rather than overthinking it.” And I'm lucky that for me that's working. I certainly understand that that's not the case for everybody. And so I don't know, I mean, I also feel like comfort enters into this, right? When people are uncomfortable, they fall back on what's familiar, you know, and just kind of one of the things about our brains, and that's something that we can be mindful of and grow beyond or not, but ultimately, that comes down to a choice other than education and, you know, relating to people communicating. I'm not really sure how to influence those choices for people. And I certainly don't want to force anybody to think a certain way. Even If I think it's, you know, perhaps the right thing, or the better thing,

Linet 45:05

That's a really interesting point, sort of seeing the threads of like, self-reflection, self-acceptance as much as we can have like, “Okay, this is the me this is the now, and what can I do with it?” And I was curious about what your thoughts are on engaging in that conversation with somebody else, or that self-reflection, and then moving from that to action. And, you know, of course, I'm thinking in terms of our work, right? But what do you think is key from, you know, as individuals trying to move from converse, like talking about it, reading about it, or something to action, or motivate others into action from conversation.

Enrico 45:58

As a dialogue facilitator, I often tell people, that dialogue is not action, but it's the thing that gets us ready, and well-equipped for action. You know, when it comes to action, I think this is one area where we often need good definitions and clarity now, at least insofar as what we want to do and why. And one of the tools that I've used that really helps me is if we, if we can picture this, right. So if you picture like a large circle, this is our circle of concern, right? These are all the things in the universe that I care about. So of course, within that, there's a smaller circle, right? And that circle is my circle of influence. So there are things that I can certainly influence, but not everything that I care about are things that I can influence. Now inside of that circle of influence is an even smaller circle. And that one is my circle of action. And again, I did not come up with this, I'm so sorry that I cannot remember where I got it from. It is something that does feature heavily in the work of AllAces. And it's something that Dr. Martin, the CEO and founder of AllAces, refers to a lot. So I have to double-check if she came up with it, but I'm not sure that's the case. But either way, the circle of action, that's where I can, where I can really do something, right? So when I'm in conversation with others about, say, racial equity, we'll kind of start thinking about what we can do individually, right. So I care about all of these things, these are the things that I can influence. And then these are the things that I can have a direct effect on right now. And the fascinating thing is, when you link up with other people who also thought about things in this way, you start to see that not only do together, your circle of action, increase in size, but your circle of influence does as well. And so really finding those places where we can align with other people, and where we can, you know, do some brainstorming around not only the kind of change that we want to see, but how we're going to get there. Like that becomes something that we can break down into digestible pieces, right. So I might say to my teammates, like, “oh, okay, so now we've figured out that we got to take action on this thing. John, I'm going to take this piece if that's all right, and because this is I don't know what are you feeling like you are able to take on?” And once we've kind of sorted out who's going to do what we can also kind of check-in to see what the gaps are where we need some support, or some where we could be linking up with other people. I'm not sure that that works all the time, but it certainly does work more often than not,

Linet 49:01

That's awesome. And I did look it up. It's Stephen Covey, Covey. Yes.

Enrico 49:07

Stephen Covey. Yes.

Alexis 49:10

Okay. Yeah. I think what you were talking about reminded me of, it was in Paulo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed that I first encountered the idea of praxis, which is, in my understanding, that your action when it's uninfluenced by thought or conversation is going to be flailing and unguided and not worth nearly as much and, you know, the flipside, of course, being what I think most people are generally on board with, that all conversation without action isn't going to get you anywhere. 

Enrico 49:49

Yeah, and I mean, in the context of organizations, it's so easy to fall into the trap of simply complaining about things. And a lot of times in organizations, we expect the organizational leaders, the people with the titles to lead us. And the reality is there are so many leaders who might not have titles within the organization. And so often when it comes to resolving or managing large organizational conflicts, we really have to identify who those leaders are, and to figure out how people are communicating, right? So there are things that I would never want to say to my direct manager, because I might, I might fear their retaliation. And this is kind of the vein that got me really interested in organizational silence. Because when we're not feeling listened to and not feeling heard, that's one way that people can kind of shut down. And in an organization, that's, that's a huge, huge issue, right? That could be the end of the organization in some cases. And the other, the other kind of organizational silence that I've really looked into is what's called pro-social silence. So back to that relationships piece. And sometimes we don't want to damage our relationship with somebody, and so we don't end up talking to them about it. And so something that might be relatively easy, if somewhat painful, to address really kind of festers into a much larger problem than it has to be. And so I don't know, these days, I'm proactive about a lot of things. But I'm not always like, super happy to be doing it. In some sense. It's kind of like working out, you know, which I'll admit I have to get back into not looking forward to it. But I know it's good for me, and I know, it'll help to head off some problems that might crop up later. So it's probably worth investing in now.

Linet 51:57

It seemed more about prosocial silence, is that we said?

Enrico 52:02

Yeah. Silence. Silence. 

Linet 52:04

So I, this is my first time hearing this term. And maybe some of our listeners is the first time so is the definition sort of like waiting on something? Because it's uncomfortable, and then it becomes larger? How would you sort of describe it to me and our listeners?

Enrico 52:23

So all right, let's say that we're working on… well, okay, so since we have that common background of music, right, and groups of musicians are often rife with conflict. So you might find yourself in a situation where, you know, you're really dear friends with the I don't know, your drummer, your bass player, whoever. And, you know, you started this band out as a group, because you're friends and you're having fun. And then at some point, the level of musicianship and playing, you know, the kind of, it's not all in step, and so somebody might be asked to leave, right? So the person who's the closest to the person who might be being asked to leave, they're not going to want to say, “Hey, we've been friends for a while, and sorry, your musicianship is just not quite cutting it,” right? However, when that happens, we also remove any opportunities to talk to that person and say, “hey, you know, what, I love having you in this band. And what would take us to the next level is if we could all kind of go back to basics for a bit and sharpen up our, you know, our general music skills.” So often we focus on the problem on removing the quote unquote, “problem,” rather than looking at the situation that the so-called problem is embedded in and what you know, that that entire situation can do to function better.

Linet 54:13

Okay, yeah, I think I sort of like looking at the underlying root of where things are coming from as opposed to focusing on like, the immediate solution like a now instead of like, reaction going towards the action, like really thinking about, you know, what, what are the implications here, what could be the consequences of this? So, Alexis and I are very, very excited, super-honored to have been asked by Enrico to join him on the "Intentionally Act Now", podcast by AllAces. So I wanted to sort of prep y'all to know that it's coming. And it's going to be really like fun and exciting for us to do this podcast, if you will. So, so I wanted to sort of set us up for that a little bit, which is, so what are the questions that are sort of hanging and juicy, that may be where we're hoping we might get to, at our next recording when you know, when we get together to really, you know, deep dive on this stuff together? What are some questions that are still coming up for everybody?

Enrico 55:34

I mean, I guess the question for me is, because I work primarily as somebody involved in organizational change, right, so one of the tensions that I'm aware of is really like, well, as the listeners have heard, sitting with us, with these really complex issues that we're facing, and that we're trying to be proactive about. Often the complexity means that there are no easy solutions. But of course, my clients, they're gonna want solutions. That's what they're paying us for. Right? So how do we be authentic about that? How do we help people to understand that this is not a cause to lose hope, that this is something that we can be successful and engaging with? And it's not necessarily something that we have to win? Right? It's from where I'm sitting. It's the engagement that really matters.

Alexis 56:40

That's, that's really good. That reminds me of one of my favorite YouTubers who was talking about, you know, vaccines and things like that. And they said, “We need to abolish the winning mindset and come to a helping mindset.”

Enrico 57:00

Yeah, I mean, so back to language learning for a second. But one of the sentences that I used to use to illustrate that cultural piece that we've been referring back to throughout this session was, “second place is first loser.” And many of my students, my students would say, “Well, no, isn't second place, also a winner?” And, you know, conceptually, yes. However, in practice in the United States of America, “hell no. Second place, why do you even get out of bed in the morning? “You know, it's like, in that's so unhealthy? Like, oh, my gosh.

Linet 57:39

So it's a great point, actually, to ask you, Enrico, you know, thank you so much for being on the pod. We want to know what, what are you working on? What are projects that are coming up for you? What do you want to shout out for people to keep tabs on? Or if you want to give shout-outs to? I mean, you've given lots of props to several of your teachers, mentors, friends that have influenced you, writers. You know, is there anybody else you want to shout out or a book or, you know, something that people should go check out? 

Enrico 58:14

Ooh, that could be a long list of things, but I'm gonna cry. Well, of course, I love to give a shout-out to my team at AllAces. And, of course, our CEO and founder, Dr. Martin. So one of the books that a lot of us on Team AllAces have been reading is by Shad Helmstetter, PhD, and it's called What to Say When You Talk to Yourself. Right? So we talked about the dehumanizing piece before and one of the most uncomfortable truths that I have had to grapple with in the past year is, when I'm engaging a lot in that negative self-talk, what I'm doing is I'm dehumanizing myself. And so, I gotta figure out how to manage that better if I want to be able to show up for those that I really care about, you know. And I think the last one that I'll do is shout out to my very good friend, Mario Portugal Ramirez, who is my collaborator on our forthcoming radio show out of Flacso, Ecuador, which is going to be a project where we interview musicians from different places in the world and not only hear their music, but talk to them about their COVID experience because well life as a musician under COVID. I don't think it's been easy for anybody. And so that's something we're both particularly interested in. The name is forthcoming, and we're hoping to start going live with it pretty soon.

Linet 1:00:00

oh, that's really exciting. Yeah, definitely let us know. We'd love to amplify that.

Enrico 1:00:05

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. And if it wasn't clear to the audience, I'm having, like, just so much fun with Linet and Alexis. And we've met a number of times, which they mentioned. But each time we meet, it's like, we end up having these amazing conversations that go in so many directions. And it's been really affirming and refreshing. And, you know, it's helping to sustain me through a lot of the difficult work that I do. So thank you both on that level, as well.

Alexis 1:00:35

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for all that. And thank you for being here. Every time thank you,

Linet 1:00:41

yeah, every time we meet, it has been really great.

Alexis 1:00:46

Looking forward to the next one. Yes,

Linet 1:00:48

I'm super looking forward. It's not always that we get a chance to actually you know, deep talk on stuff, and deep dive. It was one of my favorite parts of growing up as a teenager, you know, talking for three hours on the phone and just like talking like philosophizing about the world and in the universe and all that shit. It's, it's good.

Enrico 1:01:09

Now that you put it that way, this totally does feel like that for me too, except I sort of actually know what I'm talking about this time.

Seth 1:01:23

Thanks for listening. You can find more information and donate at unconsciousbiasproject.org. Dr. Linet Mera, she/her, and Alexis Krohn, she/her, are your hosts. Seth Boeckman, he/they, is your editor. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and follow us. We can be found on Facebook at Unconscious Bias Project, Twitter at UBP_stem, LinkedIn, Instagram, or join our mailing list. UBP is a fiscally sponsored project of the Social Good Fund, a tax-deductible 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. If you wish to sponsor us, please contact us in the contact us tab at unconsciousbiasproject.org