Published on: Jan 4, 2022

On this episode, Alexis and Linet got to talk with UBP’s friend, Liza Talusan! Liza is an amazing faciltator, consultant, and educator, and we’ve been so happy to partner with her before on our Stop AAPI Hate panel and look forward to all our future collaborations and conversations!

Liza and Alexis met while Alexis was a teacher, and Liza was at her school helping with trainings on having conversations about diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice. We were all excited to talk about the state of DEI&J movements and education; facilitation strategies for development; and also to share some thoughts about the state of education and how to advance it. Listen in for a fantastic conversation!

Please check out their website and suggestions in this episode:

www.lizatalusan.com
Liza on Facebook
Liza on Twitter
Liza on LinkedIn

"Red Flags" Webinar Collaboration - Liza with Keith Hinderlie
Dr. Dafina-Lazarus Stewart - Language of Appeasement

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Transcript

Linet  00:01

Hey everybody I'm so just so so excited for you to listen to this very very juicy episode that we recorded with Dr. Liza Talusan today. Gosh there's there's just so much jam packed in there. It's you know you have how to be a good troublemaker ally. We talked really deeply about that we talked about toxic workplaces and where diversity and inclusion and justice fit into all that why do people even talk about justice? Can we even reach justice inclusivity equity in places that are intentionally exclusive? We even talked about the craft of being facilitators of being trainers and I mean, why does it even cost so much so you're in for a real treat and spoiler alert, we're gonna have a part two so enjoy Hi everyone, Oh Allah, this Linet here and Alexis your co hosts both she her bringing you impactful stories and interviews from our communities to you. And here we get to explore how we can support each other.

Alexis  01:19

The Unconscious Bias Project is based in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, on unceded ancestral homeland belonging to the Ramaytush Ohlone and Muwekma Ohlone peoples, some of whom speak the language Chocheño. And we encourage you to learn more about the Ohlone people on our website in the podcast links. So with that, hello to our wonderful guests and my longtime friend, Dr. Liza Talusan. Dr. Talusan is an educator, a strategic change partner, leader, writer, leadership coach and parent with over 25 years of experience in pre-K to 20 education, strategic leadership and organizational change. Liza is an engaging facilitator in conversations about diversity, anti-racism, bias, privilege and power and creates environments that allow for people to build skills for difficult conversations. And I can verify firsthand that she's great at it. So through her direct work with organizational leaders, staff, students, teachers and communities, Liza empowers individuals to create a more inclusive organization, environment, community and team. In her work with the Asian American community. Liza served as the chair of the Research on the Education of Asian and Pacific Americans, REAPA, from 2017 to 2019. Wow. So welcome.

Liza  02:45

It is so good to be here with you, Linet and Alexis, and all the Unconscious Bias Project listeners yay. It's so great to be here. Folks should know we are recording this on a Friday after a very long week. So I'm just super excited, maybe a little bit punchy to be in dialogue with you and cannot imagine a better group to be with to hang out with on this Friday. So so excited to be here.

Alexis  03:11

Thank you. I'm excited too. So by quick way of extended introduction, the way that Liza and I know each other is back when I was still a teacher at an independent school. Liza was one of the DEI trainers that came in to help our school and after trainings, I would just kind of like, hang out afterwards and be like, “Hey, you're cool. Thanks.” And then we got to talking. And then yeah, every time that she came by, we would catch up. So I'm super excited about having Liza here today.

Liza  03:51

Yes, it was always so fun. So you know, these trainings are like incredibly stressful. I always tell people, it feels a little bit like performance, right? You're kind of on stage. Sometimes it's, actually there's a spotlight on you. And then after a little bit of time, like the show's over. So I always felt like Alexis would always be like the backstage door, right, being like “real talk,” like “show's over Liza, real talk, like what's going on. So and of course, through Alexis, I got to meet Linet and we did some work a little bit earlier in the summer together. And so yeah, and I'll say, Alexis, I think you you described yourself just now is like “I used to be a teacher.” But I think it could never leaves us, right? Like teaching just becomes part of what we do, as opposed to just who we are and the title we have. So I'm just so grateful that for the two of you through the Unconscious Bias Project, you're continuing to do great education. 

Alexis  04:43

Yes, it's true. I'm so excited about it. So happy with it. With that, Liza, can you tell us what your consultancy is about?

Liza  04:53

Sure. So I can do this in a couple of ways. I can do it in the very academic way that gets me some cred. All right? I didn't talk to like, how I tell my mom and dad who still kind of know that they have no idea what I do. So let me kind of get at you both ways, right? So I, my mom and dad think I'm a teacher, that I like go around to schools and organizations and companies and I, like, teach people about diversity. That's about as far as it goes. Every once in a while they see my face on a poster. And they're like, “Look, there she is, she does things.” So that's just kind of the elevator speech, like I teach about diversity. But on a much deeper level, I really help organizations and individuals, administrative teams, leadership teams, really examine the strategy behind diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice, which are four different things. I'm throwing a little bit of shade to all the places that say they do DEI work, “DEI, DEI,” and I'm always like, yeah, those are different. So I help organizations, companies and individuals and teams really look at each aspect of diversity, equity, inclusion and justice folded in there are things like anti-racism, and I get to just kind of help them better understand how to be more strategic and how to be more engaged in it. I do that with schools, which is how Alexis and I met as well. So going to different schools and organizations. Some of that work is with folks like boards of trustees, some of its with administrators, I met Alexis with faculty and staff. And I actually do a lot of work with young people. So I've worked as young as pre-K, K, all the way up to grade 12. And then now I teach in a doctoral program and a master's program at the local university here, doing similar type of work for throughout the semester. So engaging in anti-racist leadership and educational leadership skills. So that's kind of the consultancy part. And then I do a lot of coaching and kind of this one on one stuff. I always describe my coaching as an opportunity for people to ask the questions that they wouldn't dare ask in public, right? Because you know, these folks like people who know better than to ask particular questions in public, but they still think them, right? So I offer this one on one. I'm like, listen, it's just us. There's no zoom, there's no recording, let's just talk about like, what is it that you want to know? So that's the coaching part, this kind of one on one situation, I travel all over the country, I'm able to zoom internationally, which is exciting. And now that the world is starting to open up a little bit again, I'm starting to be back in person in different schools. So that's kind of the summary. I would say what LTE coaching and consulting is all about.

Alexis  07:37

Awesome. Yeah. Thank you.

Linet  07:41

Wait, hold on. I feel just like, I feel like I just got run over by an 18-wheeler, like, what do you, how do you possibly run - so so like, oh my gosh, like when one super cool, like, you know, from a group that's like, just starting in the consultancy, seeing what you've built over the years, and like the incredible depth and breadth of your experience, summarize in like, a couple of minutes, please just like, I mean, I've read your bio, I've listened to you talk on podcasts. I've listened to you on YouTube videos. And I just like, we like, it - I think we just barely skimmed like the little - I don't like I don't know that even though it should be the tip of the iceberg. I think what I'm actually talking about is, you know, when you're boiling, like a huge thing of milk, and you have that natilla the like little, that like, pellicule forming on the top, you like just get like all that delicious stuff right at the top. And they're like, Oh, holy, holy crap. Liza has like a whole, you know, other like three gallons worth of good stuff underneath. And I'm just like, wow, how do you possibly manage all those things all at once? And also, like, we have to talk shop at some point, because I want to hear all about it. Oh, my gosh, but okay, yeah, sorry. I like this. You can go.

Alexis  09:11

Thanks. Yeah, I was gonna say, I do think it's so funny the difference between like what you were saying that your parents think you do? And what you actually do? Because I feel like there's that that tension a lot where we'll be talking with potential clients, and or we'll read posts, workshop feedback. And a lot of times folks are like, well, we wanted more terms. We wanted to know more words. And it's so important what you said later in your explanation, which was about that engagement, was about that, thinking about it strategically. And it's like that is so much more important than any specific words Google exists. Hey, Google exists. 

Liza  09:54

And actually that's a great place for me to just kind of build on because oftentimes people will ask me, and I'm sure you get this too, given your consultancy for the two of you, they'll say, “hey, Liza, we really want you to come to our organization, and just tell us all the things that we're not supposed to say.” And I'm like, “sweet, this is going to be like a year-long gig.” And you know what? I'm going to say, “you know, what isn't gonna happen?” And I'm like, “great. How long do I have? They're, like, 45 minutes. Would that be enough?” I'm like, “let me let me run that to you, again, 45 minutes to cover all the things you shouldn't say?” No. So I love that I often say this, too. I'm like a “Google it.” Right? You literally could Google this while that that amazing leche is boiling, like whatever you want to do, you could just Google it. So what I how I tend to describe my consultancy is that I don't tend to teach people about their biases. I create pathways for them to discover them themselves. So it's like teaching versus pathways. Right? Yeah. And so it's doesn't make sense for me to teach you all the things you shouldn't say, I give you these pathways and protocols to ask yourself a “Why do I want to say them?” I think we can think of a couple of words that fit that bill, and be “what is my relationship to that word? What is my relationship to the community that most might be most impacted by that word?” And that's really different from telling me what to say what not to say, right? Like, it means I actually have to do a little bit of work every time I'm confronted with a situation. And so that's what I tend to do with people particularly and I know you do it too, you, right, around unconscious bias or diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, I want to give people the opportunity to use these tools in any situation. Because I always tell folks, I can run you through 25 case studies, and it's going to be the 26th one that we don't cover that trips you up. Right, you can only pair for prepare for so many scenarios. So I want to give you the tools to take to every single one of those scenarios. And so that's really why I started the consultancy in terms of consultancy and coaching. Because, you know, in my previous life, I was doing a lot of just training and I was doing a lot of the here's what to say, here's what's not to say, and it just wasn't effective, right? When I would check in with schools and organizations, I would ask them kind of follow up questions like, “hey, so did our workshop change, would one workshop change your culture?” And they're like, “No.” And I pretend to be so surprised that it didn't change it. So that's when I was like, “alright, we need to take an entirely different strategic approach to this, what are the tools that I can give people even when we're not in the workshop that they can continue to work together?” And I think that's the coaching piece. I also work with organizations to coach each other. So if I'm working with a faculty, staff, or strategic team, or even like a partnership like yours, right, where you to work so closely with each other, I have a lot of clients who are partners in business. And we go over the different tools that when they come up against conflict or discourse, that we can engage in it productively and think through the lens of identity. So that's really like why I do the work the way that I do it.

Alexis  13:08

Linet and I just did, recently, a workshop, where part of the workshop was on how to apologize. Yeah, because it's way easier to learn how to apologize when you step in it, than it is to learn a litany, a glossary of things that you can or can't say, is just learn how to apologize, especially because all of these things are always updating. How many pieces were there a few years ago about how BIPOC, right, BIPOC Was the next evolution of the word and now you can find pieces that are like, “Hmm, maybe it's time to ditch this.” Like, and you know, I'd hang out with the queer students and like, in the queer students club at my school, and they'd be like, oh, yeah, this term, that term, this, the other term. And I'd be like, “I'm supposed to be the educated one. I'm supposed to be the experienced elder and I have no idea what y'all are talking about.” Nothing, no idea.

Linet  14:05

I was finger snapping through every single thing you said, I think UBP has a very, very similar approach. And we saw the same thing. We started out, you know, just giving like talks and keynotes. And people were like, oh, yeah, that was a really good actionable thing. And then we're like, you know, what, people need something deeper. And we started, you know, running, we're doing assessments, running impact, you know, looking at all these things in the long term. I think like, for me, the like, “a ha,” sweet spot is like, yeah, you know, one of our clients had either written, maybe this was in a survey or an informational interview. But they were like, “you know, we started having these conversations at work about all this stuff. And we hadn't talked about that before.” Like “the workshop actually helped us start to talk about this stuff.” And it was like, “okay, this is good.” Like, that's something that we can say like, “Hey, that happens.” And and yeah, I love, you know, we similarly offer like consultations and coaching. We just recently I think in the last six, six months, Alexis, I feel like we added consultations and coaching because we found like our clients being like, hey, you know, do you have another 15 minutes, like after the workshop and have this thing? And I was wondering about blah, blah, and how do you apply? And? And yeah, cuz because people want to be able to talk with an experts and, you know, yes, Google it. But also, if you've ever tried to Google almost anything about social justice, you know, just like equity, there is like 50 billion different people's opinions out there. And I've seen like a gamut of training and like free resources, and like different things out there, even just talking to other people in this space. And there's everybody from like, this is a list I saw on Buzzfeed about how not to appropriate culture. And that's literally part of the training, too. Like, I'm not successful in my training, if I don't make the whole audience cry, to like something like the white fragility book where it's like, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, and the other is still an other and they're one dimensional people that it's just like, whoa, so that, you know, having somebody that cares, especially you is let's such like, depth of research and experience in all of these different facets, is really special, right? Like getting you know, if you have like, a dental problem, you talk with a dentist, right? Just like, like someone who just has teeth, right? Yeah.

Liza  16:54

Oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh, you just, yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Linet  16:58

Exactly. I'm gonna go ask that one Black person in my company. “What do I do about the situation with…” you know, somebody, you know, whatever. And it's just like, Yeah, you don't, you go to the expert. And that's kind of the whole point. I think, like, we're at this stage now, you know, we're, so we're recording September 2021. And last year was like the fervor of like, “oh, my gosh, I gotta do something. I gotta, you know, Black Lives Matter. Okay. Stop AAPI hate. Okay. You know, like, okay, we're hired a diversity person. Okay. Okay, now we're good. right? And we did some training. Okay, we're done.” So Exactly. Like you said, Alexis, and Liza, you know, it's an ever evolving dynamic thing, because people are dynamic, right? Like, history is being written every day. Like we're, you know, things are, are actively changing. And especially with the advent of the internet, you know, like, it's just, like conversations are moving breakneck speeds. You know, like, I think like, you know, what is it like, a year ago or two years ago, in the Latinx community, people were like, “Okay, no, you have to call yourself white if you look white.: And people were like, “well, no, my experience isn't white, like how do I even call that,” and then there's the, you know, non-US Central American focusing “why are we defining ourselves by by Latin, period? Like Latinx Latina, the Latine or whatever? And, and now there's, like, Okay, now there's a distinction between white-presenting and white-passing and white-passing is like, insidiously intentional. And then like, all this stuff, like, Whoa, I like I missed that thread, or like, the Latinx community is even like, some people are moving away from Latinxt to Latine and some people are even moving away from all of that entirely to say, you know, I'm like an Indigenous ancestry person of color, to like bring you know, the kind of a little bit of what we talked about at the at the event. So UBP listeners who are avid avid readers of our newsletters will know that Liza was are one of our awesome guests on “Stop AAPI Hate and Activate.” And some of the some of the stuff that we talked about. They're both Liza and with Rohan and Viv Tran was about the idea of dividing, right is like separating everybody out of like, you know, diversity in thinking about like, okay, everybody's really different. And, you know, we don't have the same struggles or we can't unite against you know, systemic issues or you know, there's there's never been a history of, you know, Black and Asian communities ever coming together. This is unprecedented, you know, whatever. Like that rhetoric, the history, the dynamic-ness of it, like you need to always be researching and learning and talking with experts. And, you know, it's like a constant and very dynamic thing. And it's not something that you can, you know, create one training. And yes, I am throwing shade here to training, and then mass produce it for like, you know, 50,000 people and call it done. It's just not going to fit everybody. 

Liza  20:31

Yeah, that's so true. And so this, there's like three things that I was jotting down as you were talking again, I was not fingers snapping, cuz I was like busy taking notes. Everything that you were saying, as you were mentioning, Linet, the different ways in which people change, and the method changes and the strategy changes, like, I will admit, I mean, I'm like 25 years into my career doing this work. And I will openly admit that in the early years, maybe years, one through 10, I was definitely buying into the whole, unless you're crying, you haven't gone deep enough, right? Like you, in order to like learn diversity, you have to be in pain, right? I'd, absolutely early in my career, like, perpetuated that, bought into it, I think it was also just the ethos of what diversity training was looking like. So I definitely did that. Of course, as we changed and understood, and I will acknowledge that a lot of that pain was the taxation of people of color, or other marginalized groups to put pain on display for the benefit of white people, right, for white learning, or cisgender learning, right, kind of fill in that Privileged Identity category. And so at that point, I was just like, oh, yeah, no, I am not doing like pain, drama for learning. And so I think there's a lot of folks who are really resistant to coming to these types of diversity trainings, or whatever you call it, equity, inclusion, justice, because they have experienced the kind of pain on display, or they're made to feel as you were mentioning, like really guilty about the work, I do think there's space for that, I don't think it just has to be public, though. So I'll admit, I've read my kind of assignment for myself, realizing that so much of my education has systematically left out indigenous and native voices, I was like, alright, I'm gonna buy like all the books that are recommended by native and indigenous authors and scholars. And I'm going to read them and I will openly admit, there were times in my own room while I was reading, where I was moved to tears that some of that was guilt, although I'm not even, you know, I'm, my family's immigrants to this country. And feeling all those things, right, a substitute pain, guilt, fear, sadness, anger, frustration. And I needed to do that for myself. Right, it was a process I needed for myself. But I do think there's a lot of trainers and facilitators who force that kind of pain in public. And that's just not what I subscribe to anymore. I think for me, they, I have to give people enough prompts, and opportunities to reflect and in those public settings, really think about action. Now remember, I tend to do workshops, where it's an organization coming together, it's not like 350 random people typically. And so we really get focused on what are the strategies within this school or organization? What are the barriers that are unique to this school and organization? And how can we start to detangle or dismantle some of the structures together, because we're all here together, it ends up being I always say to people, like grab your notebook and title it “action items,” “things to do,” or “next steps,” whatever you want to call it. And by the time we're done with the workshop, they have developed their list. And I remind them that with 300 people in the room, there are 300 versions of the to do items based on your identity, your experiences, what you care about the lens that you bring into this work. And some of that, like I mentioned, is sparked by those feelings of guilt and anger and frustration and acknowledgement. But really, I need people to stop sitting there. Right? I always say like, guilt is this feeling that we have, it's this feeling that's either temporary or stable. But those are feelings, like your sadness, the sadness that I had, that was a feeling that I had. And so it's you have to move this to action. So guilt, I think, for me, is an invitation to do something better. Right? Guilt is an invitation to do something better. And so I really have used some of those pain moments that I've done myself to say, well, what am I supposed to do about this based on this experience? What's my next step? So I will just say, I know, like I said, I think there are still facilitators who do kind of the pain on display work. I think sometimes it's just about their experience, what they're comfortable with, they tend to replicate what they know. And I know that you have a diverse audience that listens to your podcast, I would just ask people who do the pain on display technique to really think about what kind of vulnerability you're creating in the room? And is that vulnerability, a taxation to those most marginalized, for the benefit of those in power? And if that is, you have to rethink your process, you have to rethink your method, you're just re traumatizing marginalized people. And I think there's a good way to do DEIJ work without marginalizing, and taxing people of color or other marginalized identities in particular.

Linet  25:30

Finger snaps all around all around.

Liza  25:33

I mean, do you see that until you to tell me like, What are you seeing in the field?

Linet  25:37

Yeah, Alexis.

Alexis  25:39

I mean, I was gonna say that I know some of those some of those hard ones, those pain on display type things are definitely still happening. Because like, I don't know if it was quite for the pain on display reason. But like, one of my friends was like, Yeah, I have stopped going to DEI trainings at my company, even though everyone assumed that I would want to go to these workshops, because I'm Black. My friend was saying, you know, but they were like, but when I go, it's just so much work that's being put on me. And it's like, I got other things to do. And I deal with this all the time. The rest of y'all need to be doing this work, not me. You know, because she's got enough shit going on. I know, it's still out there. 

Liza  26:27

It is still out there. What about you? Linet? Do you? I mean, obviously, you travel around a lot, you do a lot of consultancy with this work? Like, what are you seeing in terms of method and process for people who are doing DEIJ or anti-racism training?

Linet  26:39

You know, that's interesting. And I have a question for later on DEIJ. But first, I have to say, Yeah, I think whenever we talk about our our motto right now, which I'm actually in my brain have been re evaluating over the last few months of like, is that really the central motto? Of “0%? Guilt Trip 100%.” Empowerment, like, that's our approach in workshops. So very similarly, when we're in groups with mixed audiences, the goal isn't to dwell on the guilt, doesn't mean that it doesn't have there isn't a space for that that's not like a valid feeling or isn't part of something that can and should be processed. It's like, in our workshops in the, in the programs that we do we center on action, like, What is something you can do today? What is something you can do in five seconds? What's something you can do in 10 seconds, what's something that you can practice on? For a few minutes now, a few minutes next time with something, you know, what is an action you can take? That is like, manageable, you can do it and you feel like yes, I can definitely do it. And I know, you know, I'm going to I'm going to, you know, I know how to do it. Like that's, that's really important. Like one one important part of what we do. And so yes, guilt, the guilt part, public pain is still something that happens. I just, you know, when cat and I first started so cats, cats or co founder when cat and I first started UBP we, we wanted it to be engaging and like, you know, thinking about, you know, talking about DEI training and DEIJ or you know, whatever programming and all this other stuff, it's, it has evolved not just because of the culture and context, but because of research, you know, so the same way that teaching has evolved over time. And, you know, people are doing flipped classroom experiences, you know, hands on learning, you know, all sorts of different methods of, of helping people learn and apply concepts. we infuse that in how we thought about what we wanted our talks and our workshops and our programs to be like, in like, Wouldn't it be awesome if you left a workshop on this feeling excited? Like, you felt empowered, you felt like hey, I have agency like, Yeah, okay. The society is this way history is this way structural inequities like, etc, etc. My privilege, you know, why whatever x&y thing, and I have agency, and I have allies, and you know, like, but like, I can still do something about it. So that's, that's what I that's how we think about it, or at least I think about it, and I've tried to infuse that in in our work. And the other thing that was interesting is, I love the sheer cornucopia that's out there of DEI facilitation. I mean, we definitely throw a little shade on some of the techniques that we don't love that, you know, maybe probably, you know, actually work for some people. Maybe they need some of that, too, as you were saying as a motivation as a way to get them from turning to setting into action. But I have a friend at Improv Science, also a professor who turned to improv theater to help people think outside of the like, box with respect to race, right? I have a friend who developed a card game “Your Privilege is Showing,” as like a way to, you know, help people have conversations on privilege and race and sort of like, you know, create containers with each other. We just actually recorded earlier today, with your friends and Enrico Manalo on like, facilitating discussions like that, like really thinking deeply on conversations and conflict management, conflict resolution, as like, you know, different frameworks to apply to this work, I have another friend, so they took Design Thinking framework, which has, you know, been based on very, you know, white cis men, you know, creating Design Thinking basically, and, you know, perpetuating the same issues that we have in society through design thinking, and they just like, went and like, you know, screw it, we're going to redesign design thinking so it can actually take in diverse experiences. So we're actually working, like in partnership, not in “Hey, give me your your input, and then I'm gonna ignore it because I know better.” It's like, “we're going to work in partnership on this. And it's not going to be the right solution until the the community that's impacted. And all the stakeholders are involved in the process. And it has like reflection, and probing,” you know, and so like, I love that there are so many different- Oh, anyway, I have my friends at In.Visible Paradigms, who centers, like she focuses specifically on white women that want to be allies, and she helps them explore identity and privilege and their part and everything. And, you know, just all of these different pieces, she goes, like super deep with them over like eight weeks. So I just, yeah, I love that there's so many different approaches out there. That that's that's the part that excites me, I do have to say, as Black Lives Matter sort of precipitated an explosion of new people in the field. I do think they're, unfortunately, you know, it's not like we have, I don't know, standards of practice or anything. So there's probably, you know, not-great trainings out there that are only checking boxes still, or, you know, just sort of like triggering additional harm, unfortunately, or, you know, like not taking into account the context, right, you mentioned context, we work a lot with that, like the context of organizations, and what they're, like specific, you know, cultural thing they have going on and don't have going on are. So, so I think, you know, there's a lot out there, I think it's, it's, it's really exciting to talk with other people that have a similar approach. But it's also really exciting to hear from from some of these folks that are - Oh, Beytna Design, that's what it's called, Beytna Design  -that are just kind of like, looking at what's the status quo and being like, “No, you know, what,” like, “Yeah, we tried that,” you know, even you saying, like, yeah, you know, “I started with the guilt thing, and,” and, you know, “public pain,” and I realized, l”ike, yeah, that's not really serving my purpose and my greater purpose.” And I think that's, that's great. That's great to hear. It's part of it's part of this process, right? Like we, we learn, we change, and hopefully with all of us trying different ways of going about it, you know, we can we can start making change, like making real change. right?

Liza  33:46

And I think that's a great point. And I thank you for like, kind of clarifying and amplifying that too. I really appreciate and learn so much from people who are doing it a little bit differently for me. So, I mean, when I think about kind of the cohort that I run with, there are folks who incorporate a lot of music into what they do. They're musicians by training and by passion. And so Jared’s workshops, yeah, their DEIJ workshops are really music-driven. They incorporate a lot of music themes, regardless of their, uh, their audience, I probably tend to do a mix of kind of what I think is appropriate. But like humor and some academic stuff, like I feel like I'm really mindful of throwing in like academic, theoretical, practical classroom leadership, like tools, I guess, if someone were to, I guess if someone were to summarize my workshop, they would say “I walked away with a lot of tools.” Right? I would hope people would say “I walked away with a lot of tools.” Because kind of the theater space is very outside my comfort zone. Like I'll be honest, the minute someone says, “we're going to do role plays,” and I'm like, “one of us isn't.” I'm not good. I have every strange reaction to it. And to be honest, I incorporate them in my own workshop as well. But I really love - I mean, obviously, we haven't been in person in so long - but I really loved going to see people doing some of these, like, kind of deep diversity, equity, inclusion scenarios. And then talkbacks. Again, not my comfort zone, not something I would do. But it was always so interesting for me as a facilitator just to watch how other things are happening. And then, you know, obviously, like I did a documentary film with Point Made Productions, called “I'm Not Racist, Am I?” some of that spun off into like a digital game, a board game, and I've actually facilitated the board game a couple of times, which, it just connects to a different type of person. So I really like that, yeah, people have different things that they need to connect to. And, again, I do know that there are some people who need to tap into the pain space because they are so moved by heart. And that's just kind of where they need to be motivated is through that kind of heart pain space. So I'm not like totally dismissing it. It's just not the thing that makes me feel that comfortable anymore as a facilitator, but it's also why I tell organizations, don't just hire me, right? Like, make sure that when you're hiring people, you're speaking to different learning styles as well. And so if you're creating a year long curriculum, not just 45 minutes, but if you're creating a strategy, right, a scaffolding, make sure that there's something kind of like academic, practical, experiential, like hit all of like, body kinesthetic, like hit all of these different pieces in there. And I would say, because you're right, Linet, I think I think there was such an increase in people who called themselves kind of DEI consultants, I think, with good intention, right? They were really upset, frustrated, mad, angry by what they were seeing with injustice in the world and locally, and they were like, “I gotta do something about this.” Like, “I am really compelled to do something about it.” And part of that do something was to become trainers. And I, all the props, because that's I was one of them 25 years ago, and right, I'll say yes. And it is one of those fields where I think people believe that just because they care about it, they can be effective trainers, right? We were kind of joking, let's bring the teeth back in. Like just because I brush my teeth doesn't make me a dentist. And I just want people to be mindful that this work like the three of us, especially, we have put in decades of training and education and skill, and in different ways that three of us hold marginalized and privileged identities. But I just want people to remember: yes, absolutely give folks a chance, give them a break, like, let them shine, let him get in there. But this isn't just a field that you can walk into people do train, like, their lives for this. And I'm grateful for a lot of collaboration, you know, again, you, the two of you in an organization that does this work, you could always say, “oh my gosh, we are not going to interview other consultants. Why would we do that? Why would we promo other people?” But that's really not what the field is, right? I always want to work with people who are interested in collaborating and uplifting, because I will say there are folks who kind of want to be the only one in the barrel. And I just that's not I just don't feel like that's the kind of people that I roll with, you know, so grateful to be in collaboration and in this space with the two of you in particular.

Alexis  38:27

Yes, yeah. Yeah, we're super grateful for it, too. And, yeah, I, as you were talking, I was thinking about just like, you know, there, there are so many people who I feel like as educators, right, we see this all the time with people who are like, oh, yeah, “I was an engineer for, you know, 20 years. So I wanted to, you know, quote, unquote, take a break, and teach for five years. Because I figured, you know, that'll be easy.” And it's like, and then they get into the classroom, and suddenly they're like, “Wait, teaching is a whole other skill.” I was like, “Yes.” And, you know, I'll go to I'll go to do things that are outside, you know, I was a Latin teacher, right? And I'll go to teach fire spinning or something like that. And people afterwards will be like, “that was a really good class. Have you been teaching, have you”… or “have you been teaching fire spinning for you know, X number of years?” and I'm like, “I just put together this workshop like last weekend, but the skill of teaching is transferable to different subjects” and likewise, right, just because you care about DEI does not necessarily mean mean that you have that additional skill and knowledge base for more, for the education.

Linet  39:51

There's a story about you know, this renowned artist, and you know, this person like ask them for a drawing of a crane, like “I want a drawing of a crane.” And you have to do it and they're like, “Okay, it's, you know, however much, like a lot of money.” And they're like… and it's like three weeks later, and they come by as, like, “where's my drawing?” And they take, like, 10 seconds to do it. And okay, y'all know it, then. Okay, can you say what it actually is? Because my brain isn't catching on to what it's supposed to be?

Liza  40:21

Yeah, I'm happy to because honestly, I have to say this to people all the time. So right to stay with your metaphor, I think I thought it was a painting. But anyway, some sort of artistic thing, where the person is like, so the person says, like, “alright, that's like $200.” And the person's like, “$200, that took you 10 minutes to make it.” And they're like, “Yeah, but it took me 20 years to prepare it,” or like, something like that, something like that, right? Like 20 years to prepare my skill to do this in 10 seconds or something, I'm also messing up the analogy. To be honest, I get that too. So to be very transparent, folks, like I do charge a quite a bit of money for the work that I do. And I feel very confident saying that, because one, I have put in 25 years of experience to like, I'm good. I'm good at it, right? And so sometimes people say like, “oh, my gosh, that's so expensive. It's only an hour.” And “I'm like, you're welcome to hire somebody else who does not have this much experience. And they could be amazing. Or you're gonna call me to fix it.”

Alexis  41:20

It's like with fire performance, or theater performance or any other type of performance, right? You already made the analogy to performance, right? This is a type of performance. And it's like, you go to see this hour long performance, theater performance, or, you know, fire spinning show or whatever it is. And it's like, you're not just paying for that hour, you're also paying for the weeks and months of preparation you're paying for, you know, in the case of theater, oftentimes, their college that they had to go to, in order to get that training. Right, you're paying for so much more than just the part you see.

Liza  42:02

Yeah, so very true. I know. And again, there are definitely amazing people who are early in their career, and they're superstars. But I think for the most part, those are pretty rare. The ones who I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, I learned so much this person is incredible” - it's because they put in the work. They put in the time, they put in the training, they've kind of gotten all their theoretical frameworks like they've really figured it out. The other thing I say to organizations is, you know, with 25 years in the work, there's very little that I haven't seen at this point, there's almost no question as ridiculous as the question might seem, that I haven't already heard. I mean, I just I can't even think of one where I was like, “Wow, I've never heard that before.” And so part of what they're paying for is my experience and ability to manage just about anything. Whereas earlier in my career, which I did not charge as much earlier in my career, I was stumped every day, right? I was like, “Oh, I don't know what to do with this one. right?” And I just feel like what you're paying for, especially when we talk about DEIJ, anti-racism, critical race theory, like you want someone who's been tested, who's seen it all, who's done it all, who's kind of not going to get stumped. And so part of that comes with a cost these days. So it's taken me a while to feel confident about what I charge. I still there plenty of people who still charge way more than I do. And it's what I'm comfortable with. And I'm sticking with it. I'm sticking by.

Alexis  43:25

That's our philosophy too, on that. It is time that we need to take a break. So we're gonna listen to a couple of announcements from Seth, and then we'll be right back. 

BREAK

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Seth  44:30

Hi, everyone, this is Seth and I am one of the audio editors and volunteers here at UBP. The Unconscious Bias Project brings creative, accessible, evidence-based solutions for unintentional bias to academic, technological, governmental organizations, and beyond. We sustain a welcoming home for inquisitive and creative minds and encourage a growth mindset. Working by the model of “0% Guilt, 100% Empowerment.” Please subscribe or follow our Facebook and Instagram for the latest in events and how you can learn more and be involved. Also, take a look and check out our guest's website and learn more. Look for that information in the description section of your podcast or on our website.

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Alexis  45:53

Before break, we were talking about trainings and things like that, a whole bunch of stuff. But right now I want to ask about, before we recorded the podcast, we were talking about the pandemic and toxic workplaces. And we are about to go back to our workplaces, some of which may be toxic. As we look, as we look, hopefully, you know, looking forward to returning to the workplaces where we get to have our connections with our colleagues. How would you like to define a toxic workplace for our listeners, and why it's so important to pay attention to those workplaces and the ways in which they may be toxic? 

Liza  46:41

Well, funny, you should ask Alexis, I've never worked in a place that was toxic! Kidding. So many examples. I might be like, “oh gosh, where do I even start finding this?” Shame I didn't. So like, okay, so I'll just kind of pick a place and then we'll keep going. So I think one, I'll speak for myself as a Person of Color. I tend to work in predominantly white workspaces. And the toxic part for me was dealing with kind of unchecked racism, micro- and macroaggressions, I was always like one of the few Asian people. So just like Asian, anti-Asian stereotypes and comments. So for me, this, I described toxic in that scenario, where I was just always having to either play small, or play white, can we really talk about that, where I just had to play white? Now for those of you who are listening, I am super not white. Like I have dark brown skin, black hair, I'm like super not-white. Like you can't - when I say things like “I play white,” like we're just being really ridiculous here. So I just get, I just had to really play down my entire identity. And so I think for me, that was really toxic, right? I had to - we use the term code switch, right? I had to code switch all the time. I live in a home of color, and my partner, my children are People of Color, and my family is of color. And so every time I would go to this workplace, there was always something that I was leaving behind about me. So I think from this personal identity perspective, that's toxic. For me as someone who cares deeply and who does the work of diversity, equity, inclusion and justice. And I actually just recorded a webinar with my dear friend, Dr. Keith Hinderlee, who's also a consultant, and we did a workshop called “Red Flags for DEI Practitioners.” And in these red flags, yes, I do think we should have had that “dun, dun duuun,” kind of thing in our workshop. But it was all these like, “Ooh, careful, if you see this, careful.” And so some of that toxic, and I'll say traumatic to you, right, toxically and traumatic had to do a lot with being gaslit as a Person of Color or right, being told “you are ridiculous” or “this isn't happening.” Right, putting kind of gas on that fire. I will say, as a DEIJ professional, literally my job description was to disrupt the status quo, right? So address racism, create strategies for greater equity. Ba ba ba ba blah, that is what you are paying me to do. Except you don't actually want me to do it. Right? Because the minute I was doing it, the language of “Ooh, she goes too far, too fast. Boo. She doesn't know our culture.” Right? Like “she's just causing waves.” I was told by someone in my workplace. I was just so much for me. I know. I'm so sorry. As a DEIJ. practitioner, someone had told me “you know, you really need to smile more when you talk about racism.” It just, it's very off-putting. Now again, for those of you who don't know me, if you see me on a webinar, I smile like crazy just anyway. And I'm like, oh, I need to do more. Like how do you do more and also, why should I have to smile during racism? So I think for me, that toxic piece was also “Oh, you all invited me to do a job that you pay me a salary for. And when I do it, you just attack me every time.” So for me, that was another aspect of toxic. And then I'll just mention this third one, which again, I see not just for DEIJ practitioners, but people who are really passionate about unconscious bias and engaging in, you know, more equity work. I was always told, as I was advocating for those, particularly of identities that I didn't have. So I was advocating for students experiencing homelessness, I was advocating for students who are experiencing food insecurity, two things of which I did not identify with. And I was told, “you know, Liza, you've really got to pace yourself, you're going to really burn out, you can't pay attention to everything.” And the meantime, I knew that there was a student going home hungry, right, I knew there was a student whose family was living in a shelter. And I was like, so should I tell them that I should, I, tell those two students I should slow down, like, what do you think? Should I should I let them know I'll put them in mind until I'm done? Like, so I think the toxicity was, for me being told that the good work was just too good. Like, “stop it.” And that's when I knew I heard someone say, “you know, they're working in a toxic work environment.” And they know that because it's a place that’s stealing their spirit. And I was like - yeah, that's another way to describe it, right? A place that is just stealing, not even your light. Because I've heard someone say that before, right? It's stealing my light. But someone who's like, oh, this place is really stealing my spirit.

Alexis  51:35

If I can harken back to something that you just said a couple of minutes ago, like, that thing about leaving part of yourself at home, is so real in those toxic workspaces. So like, there's, you know, with regards to my experience being queer, like there's definitely still this, like, vestigial, “it's not my problem, what you do in the bedroom” type mentality, right? Like, “but don't - do you need to do it in front of us?” Like, that mentality is still there. And it's like, “yeah, we want we want you to feel comfortable being trans, but please don't be queer around us.” Like, oh, that's like, “you're making folks uncomfortable with your constant questioning of the gender binary.” Like “that's what I do by my very like presentation, you're gonna have to deal with that.” If you want, one of those toxic workplace signs is when people want the people to be their, be part of their numbers, but not actually to like, be there, be there.

Linet  52:37

For instance, social justice started, like trending. Sort of like bringing bringing these toxic workplaces, identity, social justice, diversity, equity and inclusion, and anti-racism, you know, all of these different terms. I started wondering, and people were like, “Why don't you call yourself,” you know, “there's like a bunch of different acronyms.” JEDI, DIEB, DIA, D-, you know, like, so many, IDEA, like, there's just so many different versions. And I want to know, because I felt I felt like there is no way I could do justice, like, I cannot guarantee I can create social justice change in an organization through a one-hour workshop. We can't say that we do that. That just doesn't, that doesn't resonate for me. And so I wonder, I want to know, like, how do you see the justice component in the work you do in disrupting toxic workplaces? Like how do you bring the justice piece into your work? And how do we bring that into into breaking up toxic workplaces?

Liza  53:47

I actually don't call myself a DEIJ facilitator. So even when Alexis was reading my bio, right, it was like Dr. Talusan is an educator, strategic change partner, leader, writer, leadership, and parent, right, like nowhere in there as DEIJ. Only a little bit later is our, to learn like, how I do those things. So I educate, I engage in strategic partnership, I lead, I coach through difficult conversations about diversity, anti-racism, bias and privilege and power. right? So I really focus on those other pieces, educating strategic change leading, right? Coaching and parenting and writing. And I do it through the lens of DEIJ work as which is opposed to saying, “I am a DEIJ facilitator or educator, and I do all these other things.” I don't know why that makes a difference for me, but it feels so clear to me in my head about what that is. And I think for me, it's also that those other pieces, educating strategic change partner, those are fundamental to organizational practices. And so when I say and I do all of those things, which are fundamental to organizational practices, but heck, we're going to do it through a DEIJ lens. Like I'm not, I can't talk about leadership without talking about diversity, equity inclusion and justice, my students in my master's program, and in the doc program, the official title of the class is “Educational Leadership Skills. And I, literally in both of those classes, greet them like, Hi, I'm Dr. Talusan, I'm your faculty member. Education is racist AF. And here we go. And they're like, yes. [Linet, crosstalk: “Is this the right class?”] And I'm like, “oh, no, you are definitely in the right class.” I had a student not too long ago, say, you know, because I was describing it, like, “we're learning how to be educational leaders.” And a person that said, “I think this might not be the right class. For me, I've been a leader for eight years, it sounds like this is really a class for new leaders.” And I was like, “I don't mean to put you on the spot. But how much of those eight years have been focused on anti-racism?” And they're like, “well, not really.” And I'm like, “so it sounds like you need this class. Like, sounds like you've been leading improperly.” Sorry, right? And then you know, and then just so you know, all the teachers, we smooth it over later. But my point is, like, if you are doing leadership without anti-racism, like, you're not doing leadership, what is that? You know, what it is? White leadership. So I'm not interested in perpetuating white leadership. So. So I would say that's kind of like that first thing that leads me to my answer, my very long winded answer to Justice, Linet. I am super grateful for the academic and theoretical labor of a scholar named Dr. DL Stewart. And he, in 2016, 2017, wrote an article called “The Language of Appeasement.” And I know we'll probably put that in the podcast notes or something like that. For any of you who are listening to this podcast, and you're looking for like something to read or tips or whatever. Dr. Stewart's article, “the Language of Appeasement” is a very quick read, in which he defines accurately diversity, inclusion, equity, and justice. And I use this article as a foundation for a lot of my workshops, because then I say, “All right, the clarity of definition leads us to clarity of conversation, which leads us to clarity of action.” So the definition that Dr. Stewart gives us related to justice, and I'm paraphrasing just a little bit here, as that justice is examining - what are the conditions that leave people out? What are the conditions that have sacrificed or minimized other people's safety? Who gets to decide who belongs? Like all these really intense questions. So I then ask organizations, “what do you believe are the action items that are connected to the decisions that we make that allow people to perpetuate dehumanizing views?” So I'll often hear things like, “Well, if we do this, if we do something on Black Lives Matter, then we also have to do something on Blue Lives Matter.” And I'm like, “No, you don't ,actually, right, those are two, those are actually not connected.” So I sometimes like, people engage in injustice, when they try to do what we call this balanced point of view. And my thing is one of those causes great psychological and emotional harm. And the other one focuses on the human rights of others.

Alexis  58:08

That's like, and we don't, yeah, yeah, we don't we don't go like, well, it's time to learn about this, or we shouldn't anyway, I know, there are probably, you know, places that do, I know that there are places that do talk about, you know, well, “let's talk about slavery, which is bad. But also, let's hear from the other side.” Right? And it's, that says that, like, “it's our Christian mission to enslave black people,” like, No, we don't equate those two. And it's like, and I feel this frustration, because oftentimes, because I'm like, the only difference is that right now, you're inside the debate, but it is as clear that one of these is like, just not comparable to the other. Right? It's the like, don't meet Nazis halfway. Like, if you're, if you meet Nazis halfway, you're still going closer to being a Nazi. Don't do it. right? 

Liza  59:07

Yeah. And so justice, I think the lead to your question, like justice requires us to confront those very difficult conversations, and to really examine the structures that even allows us to ask the question, “Well, what was good about slavery?” Right, like, what are the actual conditions and structures that even give us permission or give us this pathway to ask that question? Like, there was nothing good about slavery, right? And so to even put that into the fold, is really problematic. You know, Alexis, you and I both worked at independent schools, and I often asked independent schools, which are this private, selective, right, places, like” is it even possible to do justice work in schools that were literally built for exclusion?” Like, is it even possible and I asked independent schools that question honestly, I'm not even trying to be provocative. Like “you all talk about your anti-racist missions and your commitment to justice. But is it even possible? Like, is it even possible based on how you're built and your foundings? Like you were founded to segregate that, and we continue to do it today, right? We continue it today.” And so people were like, “What? What are you saying? Why is it that we shouldn't do justice work?” And I'm like, “well, one, let's be honest about is that even possible? And two, I'm not saying you shouldn't teach it, you should absolutely teach justice.” So maybe we are now inspiring younger people, or even creative folks to think about, like, how do we begin to disrupt it? One of the things that Stuart gives us in the article is one way to engage in or achieve justice is to put decision making in the hands of those most marginalized, which is not how hierarchical organizations work, right, decision making’s at the top. And so what does it mean for it to actually believe in the agency, when I think about, right, 100% empowerment? What does it mean to actually turn agency over to those most impacted, that's justice work, it requires a deep sense of humility. It requires a deep sense of individual and organizational trust. It requires a deep sense of individual at an organizational risk taking. And I think right now, and 2020, 2021, people are primed to do that. I worry that the further that we get away from ongoing racial injustice and the global pandemic, that we will revert right back to white norms, white protectionism, right, white systems. And that's one of my greatest fears. I think it's why I keep showing up to do this work. Because we, it's, it's not helpful for us to move backwards. And we know this country we have. We've moved backwards in many ways. And this is one of those hills that I just won't give up on.

Linet  1:01:52

I feel like we have so much left to talk about. So just so y'all know, we're in for a real treat. Liza is is such a badass, so amazing, and so generous. Yes, her knowledge and her sheer like amount of I don't know, expertise, energy, vibe, everything. We're going to record a second podcast. But before we end this one, I want to pose one last question. How can people be good troublemakers or allies? 

Liza  1:02:27

Ooh, can I take this? I love this question. Because this is like what I've been trying to tell people. So I'll speak from my perspective. I, in a couple of workplaces, toxic work environments, I needed people to be good troublemakers and allies. And maybe they thought, I think those people, if they listened to your podcast would be like, “Oh, my God, I was so one of them.” No, you were not. If I didn't tell youm you weren't because I told everybody who was good to me, “You are, you are good to me.” Oh, yeah. If you didn't get the you are good to me text, you have some work to do. So here's what I wish had happened. So if you are listening this podcast and you know someone is going through something toxic, traumatic, do this. So I would say the first thing I definitely needed from people who are good troublemakers was just to even acknowledge that I was going through something like, y'all knew I was going through something. And some people chose to turn to me and be like, “I see you.” Right? “I see you. I see what's happening here.” And there were other people who were like, “You know what, I'm just gonna look the other way. Because I'm not trying to get in trouble either. Like, I still need to have these people like me. So I'm not doing that.” And folks, I'm not talking about like, middle schoolers. I'm talking about grown people who did this to me. So one, like acknowledge and validate the actual existence of a person who might be feeling that traumatic or toxic experience. One. Go ahead, folks write that down. “I acknowledge and…” that, no kidding. Like, but that's really like odd to be honest. That's what I needed. I needed someone just to be like, “Oh, I see you. Yeah, this is - that I got you.” Alright, because that second piece is the “I got you.” So everybody is going to determine what their “I got you is” right? So like, I know, there are some people I can call who will literally be like, “what plane, what airport should I fly into? How fast will it take me to take my earrings off?” Like, “what do you need me to do for you?” And so there are people who I know are just down, right? They're down, they will ride, if I say jump, they will jump type of thing. There are other people who do need a little bit of direction. And I've got to be honest, I think there were people who I did say, “here's what I need from you, right? We're about to go into this meeting together. And I know that I'm about to get attacked, gaslit, whatever. And I just can't do it. So here's here let me slip you this paper. Here's the phrases I need you to say.” And so if you really want to be a troublemaker and all, you really want to ride or die with this person, like, you need to say the things because I will say, I have slipped that paper to some people, and the meeting happened, and I was like, “Dude, what? Like I even gave you?” They're like, “Oh my God, no didn't seem a good - Oh, my God,” or they're like, “Oh yeah, it just didn't seem like the right time.” And I'm like, “Yeah, that was the whole idea. There's never a right time, they're never gonna give you space, just, you had to say them.” So I would say if your person is generous enough to give you kind of a script or things to say, oh, my gosh, say it. And then the other thing. The other thing is, acknowledge when you have the privilege to not be risky. So I had a colleague who, she really had nothing to risk. I mean, this was not risky. And when I asked her to just stick up for me, she had said, well, “Liza, I've got like, you know, a kid going to college, like, I can't afford to lose my job.” And my thing was, “oh, my gosh, you are not going to get fired. They're not going to fire you, white woman who's worked here for 20 years, like it's just not going to happen. So you actually this risk that you think you're carrying is not real.” But of course, I was like, let go soon after. So I think you know, to be a good troublemaker ally really examine “how true is this risk that I'm identifying, that's keeping me from being a good ally, or troublemaker?” Those are my three, I'm sure the two of you have like a list of good tips for people as well, I would I got my pen ready. And I am ready to take notes on what the two of you have for people. 

Alexis  1:06:28

I was gonna say just on that third point, like one of the things that we definitely directly talk about in our workshops is that like, being an ally means sharing risk, we're very clear about it. Like, if you're not taking on any of that risk by speaking up, then you're just letting other people out to dry.

Linet  1:06:47

What we normally do is within this is like have a conversation. It's not, so when we, when I talk about it to people, they're like, “Yes, I'm an ally, I have a pin, I put the thing on my Facebook profile, like, I'm such an ally, I'm so, I'm super allied to the rescue gonna, like, you know, I don't know, interrupts racism in its tracks, pow.” And it's like, that is not allyship, it's great for you to go vote. t's great for you to go, you know, amplify voices, it's great for you to like believe, you know, a person with a disability, you know, whatever, you know, marginalized group, when they ask you for something, but like allyship means you need to have a conversation with that person. They need to say like, “this is when you can step in and help me, these are the things like you were talking about.” I love that we talked about that. Like, here's like, “I always get interrupted at this meeting, I need you to say, ‘hey, I want to hear what Alexis had to say, I want to hear what LINET had to say.’ I need you just to do that. And then you do it.” And it but it has to be a conversation because maybe it could be a situation where they're like, “I've got I got it. I got it. I'm fine.” Right? Like, if you have any sort of identity that has ever been oppressed, repressed, marginalized, you can't speak up for yourself. It's that we're doing this so much. It takes so much energy all the fucking time. It's not just one on ones. It's in the media. It's an how people talk about, like, a culture an entire country, you know, it's just all the fucking time and so active allyship is like, like you said, “I see you as a person. I see what's happening. I believe you. And what can I do?” “Yeah, like, take off your earrings. Get ready. Like I'll hold them you punch like that.” Like that's where you you have to be ready, to be, it's not just “I wear - I bought a Black Lives Matter shirt.” It's “are you are you ready to listen to, you know, the protests leader and follow their instructions? Are you ready to, you know, also speak up at the board meeting? Are you also ready to maybe leave your seats so you can make another seat like that?” That is allyship. That's troublemaking. You know, that's the level you have to go to. But no, I love your three bits. I think they they're super beautiful. And I think that's a great place for us to go to our shout-outs. So I know we'll have more in the next episode we record. But and you've you've mentioned your fellow consultant, Dr. Hinderlee, and Stewart, the red flag webinar that you mentioned also, which we'll definitely link to, do you have any shoutouts that you want to give either, you know, projects that you have coming up that you'd like folks to tune into, or you know, like kudos to somebody or a group or a book that people should read or you know, something they should check out?

Liza  1:09:58

Yeah, I love that. Thanks for building In this nice shou- out piece, I mean, obvious shout out to the two of you for creating space for this conversation. And I am, you know, taking you up on a part two, this was just great. I mean, again, it was so nice for me to be able to toss questions over to you and for you to amplify the work of Unconscious Bias Project and your own narratives and experiences. So huge shout-out. Sometimes people don't know behind the scenes, but there are people who edit a lot of the work to other podcasts as well. So shout out to people behind the scenes as well. And then I would just say Okay, hello, amazingly shameless plug. So my book is coming out in January. Finally, after a few years, y'all know how long it takes. We're like books to get published, what it's been like two years. So the book that I that is in publication right now, again, it should be launching in January is incredibly practical. So for those of you who are looking for real tools to implement in your organizations, be on the lookout, we'll send an announcement through all of our socials about that book, but we believe it's being published in January. So that's my big shout-out and shout out to the production team there as well.

Linet  1:10:59

Oh, awesome. Yeah, definitely let us know. We're happy to amplify that. And I can't wait to get a copy. That sounds awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Liza. This was a blast. This is like the best way to end Friday. For me. That was amazing.

Alexis  1:11:17

Always great to talk with you again, Liza.

Seth  1:11:23

Thanks for listening. You can find more information and donate at unconsciousbiasproject.org. Dr. Linet Mera, she/her, and Alexis Krohn, she/her, are your hosts. Seth Boeckman, he/they, is your editor. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and follow us. We can be found on Facebook at Unconscious Bias Project, Twitter at UBP_stem, LinkedIn, Instagram, or join our mailing list. UBP is a fiscally sponsored project of the Social Good Fund, a tax-deductible 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. If you wish to sponsor us, please contact us in the contact us tab at unconsciousbiasproject.org.